The cupboards ARE bare

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I thought Gillis's comments on his approach to GM'ing were interesting, he pointed out there were so many intangibles a team had no ability to effect that they had to put their effort into the things they could, money for the scouts, diet and sleep specialists, extra coaching etc.

I think there is something to be said for the Canucks getting more out of their players right now than one would expect, Kessler, Bieksa Burrows and Edler are all playing over what one would have thought they would manage a few years ago. I doubt it is just luck.

Partly luck, partly not. In addition to what you mentioned, They have kept a lot more of their picks and more of their drafted players over the years. IMO, The big reason, at least on defense, is that they have guys like Sami Salo that can't seem to stay healthy on the team, giving prospects a chance to show their stuff and develop in the NHL when they might not otherwise have had the opportunity. Finally, they didn't trade away their Keith Aulies and Ryan Wilsons for peanuts, which helps.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Oilbert

glad you didnt degrade me as a nucks fan.

You're a Nucks fan?!? Well this changes everything!

[868904]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I thought Gillis's comments on his approach to GM'ing were interesting, he pointed out there were so many intangibles a team had no ability to effect that they had to put their effort into the things they could, money for the scouts, diet and sleep specialists, extra coaching etc.

I think there is something to be said for the Canucks getting more out of their players right now than one would expect, Kessler, Bieksa Burrows and Edler are all playing over what one would have thought they would manage a few years ago. I doubt it is just luck.

Or those players are just winners....say all you want about the diving, the hair pulling, the biting, the cheating....they do it cause they want to win...that was very evident from the first time any of those guys put on that jersey, they were hated by rival fans pretty much instantly.

[Kelekin]

I feel I've been waiting forever for a thread like this. I'm such a big proponent of baseball and how crucial development is to the future of baseball teams even in a league without a salary cap, that it goes to show how important prospect development is. We have depth - we have no shortage of 3rd and 4th line guys. But we need guys who look like they'll be in our top six. We need young, dynamic forwards. We don't have a lot to look forward to in our farm system outside of goaltending.

Better scouting. Bigger scouting budget. Sign the best players available. Let's get it right this time. Because until we do, we're going to be stay as a mid-tier team getting by with cheap FAs.

[Reign of Fire]

Originally Posted by Kelekin

I feel I've been waiting forever for a thread like this. I'm such a big proponent of baseball and how crucial development is to the future of baseball teams even in a league without a salary cap, that it goes to show how important prospect development is. We have depth - we have no shortage of 3rd and 4th line guys. But we need guys who look like they'll be in our top six. We need young, dynamic forwards. We don't have a lot to look forward to in our farm system outside of goaltending.

Better scouting. Bigger scouting budget. Sign the best players available. Let's get it right this time. Because until we do, we're going to be stay as a mid-tier team getting by with cheap FAs.

I think best strategy to employ is BAP, especially since anyone drafted out top 5 or 10 hardly makes a immediate impact. I think Flames need to start drafting for skill instead of trying to make the safe pick.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Freeway

Irving is good. Jury still out on Ortio.
Brodie is good. Breen has potential but is still a project. Leach could be good (he was very effective in WHL playoffs).
Reinhart is good. Howse and Horak should be good. Nemisz and Bouma are good.

Things aren't perfect, but the sky isn't falling or anything.

If you're looking at our prosects in isolation, then you aren't getting the big picture. You have to look at what 29 other teams have to make a true assessment about our state.

When you look at the prospect pools of most other teams, they all have the same kind of calibre of prospects as us, but that is their 2nd tier. All teams have "good" prospects... and most have a great prospect or 2 (we don't).

[Johnny Rotten]

[QUOTE=Caged Great;3142400]Well it is a bit hard to get excited.


Howse and Reinhart are boom bust players. Howse especially. Reinhart might be able to become a decent 3rd/4th liner in the Glencross mold.

I don't see Reinhart as a Glencross type player, but more of a Langkow-type player (with his vision and offensive instincts).

Otherwise, as you say, it's hard to get excited especially after this week.

Here's hoping for a good draft.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Kelekin

I feel I've been waiting forever for a thread like this. I'm such a big proponent of baseball and how crucial development is to the future of baseball teams even in a league without a salary cap, that it goes to show how important prospect development is. We have depth - we have no shortage of 3rd and 4th line guys. But we need guys who look like they'll be in our top six. We need young, dynamic forwards. We don't have a lot to look forward to in our farm system outside of goaltending.

Better scouting. Bigger scouting budget. Sign the best players available. Let's get it right this time. Because until we do, we're going to be stay as a mid-tier team getting by with cheap FAs.

Agreed - better scouting needed, both pro and amateur.

Need to find this year's Anthony Stewart/Michael Grabner - a young kid who's team has given up on him but the talent is there, just needs to be given a chance and when given that chance, shows why they were a highly touted prospect. Maybe a guy like Kendal McArdle if FLA purges the roster

Lots of focus on the draft but that is just 1/3 of the way you develop a team. Trades/Free Agency are the other 2/3. Understatement that we have not done a good job on the drafting recently, but the trades/FA pick ups over the past few years have been very hit and miss, unlike what Detroit has done, particularly with their reclamation projects (Cleary, Eaves to name two).

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Agreed - better scouting needed, both pro and amateur.

Need to find this year's Anthony Stewart/Michael Grabner - a young kid who's team has given up on him but the talent is there, just needs to be given a chance and when given that chance, shows why they were a highly touted prospect. Maybe a guy like Kendal McArdle if FLA purges the roster

Lots of focus on the draft but that is just 1/3 of the way you develop a team. Trades/Free Agency are the other 2/3. Understatement that we have not done a good job on the drafting recently, but the trades/FA pick ups over the past few years have been very hit and miss, unlike what Detroit has done, particularly with their reclamation projects (Cleary, Eaves to name two).

Considering what picks we have had over the past 4 drafts our drafting has actually been fine, imo.

Hopefully Feaster plans to keep our picks (not use them as trade bait) then our drafting should hopefully appear even better.

[fanman]

The Flames have just recently started to make a few of those riskier picks, Howse being a prime example. But I would also like to see them make a few more of those. And they need to stop trading away picks, especially 2nd or 3rd rounders. Feaster has said he doesn't want to do that and hopefully he sticks to it. Part of the problem may be that like last year the Flames didn't have many picks, so maybe they felt they needed to choose the "safe" player. I'm excited about Reinhart's development but at the time he was definately seen as a safe, non-flashy pick.

I hope they actually expand the scouting staff as Feaster has suggested they would, they need more eyes watching for these surprise late picks. He also seems more open to suggestions and input from his staff than his predecessor which is good.

2 players in the system that have my interest are Negrin and Wahl. I hope they both have an injury free season for the Heat and we can truly see how they develope over the course of the season. And really hope Horak has a great showing and the two 2nd rounders are used to try to grab skill players. Fingers crossed.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Kelekin

I feel I've been waiting forever for a thread like this. I'm such a big proponent of baseball and how crucial development is to the future of baseball teams even in a league without a salary cap, that it goes to show how important prospect development is. We have depth - we have no shortage of 3rd and 4th line guys. But we need guys who look like they'll be in our top six. We need young, dynamic forwards. We don't have a lot to look forward to in our farm system outside of goaltending.

Better scouting. Bigger scouting budget. Sign the best players available. Let's get it right this time. Because until we do, we're going to be stay as a mid-tier team getting by with cheap FAs.

actually there's been a ton of threads on this very topic, with people falling into the "drafting is all luck" vs "we need to change our scouts/philosophy/development"

i am in complete agreement that Calgary has not been able to unearth, for whatever reason, an elite forward in a very, very long time. This has come back to haunt us in that we have been constantly trying to bridge the talent gap with UFA or trades.

With Erixon, he was truly one of the prospects I was very excited about. I absolutely understand that Feaster had no choice but to trade him (though one can question the timeline)...

we'll see if the new regime has better luck/insight

[sworkhard]

In my opinion, scouting quality is a function primarily of the number of scouts in an organization. When Darryl became part time GM, the entire org only had 3 full time scouts. It's no suprise then that only Dion Phaneuf was a successful pick in the great 03 draft. Over the next couple of years they nearly tripled the number of scouts and as a result, drafting progressivly got better. When Darryl stopped coaching and became a full time GM in 06, he re-evaluated the scouting staff, made some tweaks, and changed it's philosiphy towards skill and smarts. The results speak for themselves. The 07 draft has Backlund and Aulie as NHLers. The 08 Draft has potentially 4 NHLers in it (Brodie, Nemisz, Bouma, and Wahl). If Larson develops well, there potentially a 5th. 09 had Tim Erixon, who unfortunatley decided not to play here, Ryan Howse, and Joni Ortio, although it's unclear if Howse or Ortio will have any success at the next level.


The closest we have to an elite forward in those years is Mikael Backlund. He has the skill to be a top line forward, but has to develop into the role. Assuming Backlund continues to work hard and try to improve, he should be in our top six within 2 years. With guys like Backlund it's hard to know where their top end is, so hopefully he has the drive to develop into the best centre the flames have had in in a long time.

The second closest is probably Ryan Howse. He has more finishing skill than Backlund, and amazing hands, but he needs to develop his 2 way game and prove he can score at the next level. He's not tall at 5'11, but he looks like he's pretty solid and is a decent weight for his age and height at 185lb so that shouldn't be to much of a detriment.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Beerfest

Considering what picks we have had over the past 4 drafts our drafting has actually been fine, imo.

Hopefully Feaster plans to keep our picks (not use them as trade bait) then our drafting should hopefully appear even better.

Have to disagree with you when we look at the past 4 drafts as there have been definite hits and definite misses:

2007 - Backlund good pick. Good late find in Aulie in round 4 but he has started his NHL career with Toronto (can't blame the scouts on this one)
2008 - Nemisz (Ennis/Carlsson better players at this point), Wahl (Hamonic better at this point). Brodie a hit, 7th rounder was not offered a contract
2009 - aside from Erixon (not this week's developments on the scouts), we chucked away our 4th and 5th rounders and could have legitimate prospects under contract had the scouts been more on the ball
2010 - jury out but so far appear to have good middling prospects with some upside

Agree with the fact that we haven't had a 2nd rounder since 2008 but you do the best with what you have and this clearly has not been the case in some instances, 2008 (with the exception if Brodie) and 2009 don't look good at all. If anything, with less draft picks available you have to hit on all of them and there really isn't any excuses not to as you know you will have to look past the 2nd round for talent. Not going to go on further as it has been discussed at length but I don't like to see acceptance of mediocrity and excuses for the scouts not doing their job.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

In my opinion, scouting quality is a function primarily of the number of scouts in an organization. When Darryl became part time GM, the entire org only had 3 full time scouts. It's no suprise then that only Dion Phaneuf was a successful pick in the great 03 draft. Over the next couple of years they nearly tripled the number of scouts and as a result, drafting progressivly got better. When Darryl stopped coaching and became a full time GM in 06, he re-evaluated the scouting staff, made some tweaks, and changed it's philosiphy towards skill and smarts. The results speak for themselves. The 07 draft has Backlund and Aulie as NHLers. The 08 Draft has potentially 4 NHLers in it (Brodie, Nemisz, Bouma, and Wahl). If Larson develops well, there potentially a 5th. 09 had Tim Erixon, who unfortunatley decided not to play here, Ryan Howse, and Joni Ortio, although it's unclear if Howse or Ortio will have any success at the next level.


The closest we have to an elite forward in those years is Mikael Backlund. He has the skill to be a top line forward, but has to develop into the role. Assuming Backlund continues to work hard and try to improve, he should be in our top six within 2 years. With guys like Backlund it's hard to know where their top end is, so hopefully he has the drive to develop into the best centre the flames have had in in a long time.

The second closest is probably Ryan Howse. He has more finishing skill than Backlund, and amazing hands, but he needs to develop his 2 way game and prove he can score at the next level. He's not tall at 5'11, but he looks like he's pretty solid and is a decent weight for his age and height at 185lb so that shouldn't be to much of a detriment.

Exactly my point - 4 drafts yields one bonafide prospect and many question marks - poor return on investment. Go to wikipedia and check the drafts and see what prospects the Flames missed out on. Sutter added scouts, but apparently ones that weren't able to identify legitimate nhl prospects on a consistent basis.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by fanman

The Flames have just recently started to make a few of those riskier picks, Howse being a prime example. But I would also like to see them make a few more of those. And they need to stop trading away picks, especially 2nd or 3rd rounders. Feaster has said he doesn't want to do that and hopefully he sticks to it. Part of the problem may be that like last year the Flames didn't have many picks, so maybe they felt they needed to choose the "safe" player. I'm excited about Reinhart's development but at the time he was definately seen as a safe, non-flashy pick.

I hope they actually expand the scouting staff as Feaster has suggested they would, they need more eyes watching for these surprise late picks. He also seems more open to suggestions and input from his staff than his predecessor which is good.

2 players in the system that have my interest are Negrin and Wahl. I hope they both have an injury free season for the Heat and we can truly see how they develope over the course of the season. And really hope Horak has a great showing and the two 2nd rounders are used to try to grab skill players. Fingers crossed.

If by 'riskier picks' you mean players with offensive upside instead of hard working two way players, I agree with you.

Hope you are right when it comes to expanding/revamping the scouting department and that we see players with offensive flair drafted with the hope that they are developed properly so that we see results in the next 2-4 years.

[Beerfest]

Im hoping Feaster can perhaps get a couple more picks for this draft.

Losing Erixon sucks bet getting the two second round picks was nice.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Exactly my point - 4 drafts yields one bonafide prospect and many question marks - poor return on investment. Go to wikipedia and check the drafts and see what prospects the Flames missed out on. Sutter added scouts, but apparently ones that weren't able to identify legitimate nhl prospects on a consistent basis.

Most teams consider a good draft year one where 2 of thier picks conistently make the NHL, anything above that is great. 07 has 2 NHLers in it, so that's good (granted, not all of them are getting thier chances with the flames, but that's a whole nother argument and is more pro-scouting than amateur scouting). 08 has 3 that have played NHL games, and likely will play more NHL games in the future. Again, seems decent. Granted there aren't really great prospects from what we can see right now outside of Tim Erixon (I know he left, but he was still our pick) and Backlund, but only time will tell how the last drafts will pan out. However, there are at least 2 good or bonafide prospects/players in the last 4 years.

You can take any team in the league and point out the players they missed. Generally you have to look at the players taken within 2 picks either way if you want a good comparison of players they potentially missed. When you start dropping several rounds, you get into the issues that 30 other teams missed them for a few rounds as well.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Reign of Fire

I think Flames need to start drafting for skill instead of trying to make the safe pick.

Sutter's "safe picks" we about as safe as Austin Powers staying on seven in his blackjack game.

I want guys with upside.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by SebC

Sutter's "safe picks" we about as safe as Austin Powers staying on seven in his blackjack game.

I want guys with upside.

Agreed, for how "safe" they were, none of them ended up being very safe at all. Unless they mean a safe bet to never take up a seat on the charter planes.

[Reign of Fire]

Originally Posted by SebC

Sutter's "safe picks" we about as safe as Austin Powers staying on seven in his blackjack game.

I want guys with upside.

Thats what i was getting at, instead of drafting the gritty, defensive type players, take a chance on some skilled players