Can you be any more dramatic? What a 4 year old thinks hurts society? 4 year olds are filled with stupid ideas. When I was in kindergarten, I knew a kid that thought black people were made of chocolate. Did he end up becoming a Clansman? No. He grew up and forgot that silly misconception just as everyone else does.
Maybe not. But maybe he became this guy:
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I don't think that there is anything wrong with gender roles. If the boys like blue and the girls like pink, who cares if it is a result of their upbringing? It is a bloody colour. It doesn't hinder their ability to do anything in the future and I hardly see any injustice being committed here.
LOL
Can you be any more dramatic? What a 4 year old thinks hurts society? 4 year olds are filled with stupid ideas. When I was in kindergarten, I knew a kid that thought black people were made of chocolate. Did he end up becoming a Clansman? No. He grew up and forgot that silly misconception just as everyone else does.
More garbage. It couldn't be that most women just aren't interested in those things? Like it or not, there are innate differences between men and women and there always will be. What these parents are going to find is that their kid is going to move towards feminine or masculine roles depending on its gender regardless of what nonsense they promote about the child being sexless.
Ark, I am not trying to be an ass but Devils' Advocate provided concrete examples to back up his arguments.
You come off as the dramatic one.
AND there IS a problem with people thinking men are doctors and women are nurses. I work in health care.
I am a Diagnostic Imaging technologist and in my branch of DI, the technologists wear lab coats. They look at me in a lab coat and think I am a doctor. They look at my female coworkers (in lab coats!) and think they are nurses. Neither is correct but the preconception is still evident. AND I work almost exclusively with adult patients.
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This is some kind of feminist-inspired "social construct" lunacy going on here. To each there own, but I have a hard time believing that I am the reason behind my son liking action figures and my daughter liking dolls.
All these experts that babble on about how women's choices of careers is due to nurture rather than nature is grindingly annoying. Somehow we are to believe that "society" has forced/coerced/manipulated these choices on women rather than these individuals actually freely making personal life choices. Maybe it time to blame yourselves?
If you are raising your child and worrying about these things you have your priorities very badly placed. How about raising your child to have a plethora of choices where they can make their own decisions in a loving environment.
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Ark, I am not trying to be an ass but Devils' Advocate provided concrete examples to back up his arguments.
You come off as the dramatic one.
AND there IS a problem with people thinking men are doctors and women are nurses. I work in health care.
I am a Diagnostic Imaging technologist and in my branch of DI, the technologists wear lab coats. They look at me in a lab coat and think I am a doctor. They look at my female coworkers (in lab coats!) and think they are nurses. Neither is correct but the preconception is still evident. AND I work almost exclusively with adult patients.
Yup, I have been asked if I was a doctor a few times just because I'm in scrubs walking through the concourse or when I'm in the cafeteria. None of my female co-workers get asked this.
Ark, I am not trying to be an ass but Devils' Advocate provided concrete examples to back up his arguments.
You aren't an ass, but you do come off as being incredibly naive if you think that Devil's Advocate provided concrete examples. You want a concrete example, check out the story of David Reimer. As an infant, his penis was burned off during a botched circumcision. So, not knowing what else to do, they performed a sex change operation on the child and attempted to raise the child as a girl. Despite all their efforts, the child rejected the female gender role. The child behaved in a distinctly masculine manner, are rejected what was typical of female child. The child eventually rejected the sex change and ended up living a very tragic. I feel that this far more "concrete" than DA's general observations that are clearly biased by his own preconceived notions.
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You come off as the dramatic one.
If I come off as being dramatic then it is only because I am so sick and tired of the vilification of gender roles. There is nothing wrong with girls wanting to play with dolls and boys wanting to play with trucks. Consequently, there is nothing wrong with women wanting to be nurses and men wanting to be engineers. What's important to me, however, is that if a woman wants to be an engineer or if a man wants to be a nurse, then there shouldn't be anything preventing them from doing that.
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AND there IS a problem with people thinking men are doctors and women are nurses. I work in health care.
The reason people make those assumptions is because the majority of nurses are females. If more men became nurses, then people would gradually stop making those assumptions. As long as there is nothing prohibitive about such an assumption, then I don't see the problem.
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I remember my Grade 11 English teacher telling us a story about going to the doctor's office. She was taking her 4 year old boy into a clinic because she couldn't get an appointment with her regular doctor and the boy was quite sick. They went into the room and the female doctor came in and the boy looked up at his mother and asked "Now that the nurse is here, is the doctor coming soon?". My English teacher said she was absolutely aghast. She had never taught her son that women could not be doctors. Where he picked that up from she hadn't the foggiest idea. She thought she had been raising her son to believe that women were equal to men and could do any job they wanted. But here she was, shocked that despite her best intentions, her son had picked up from somewhere that men are doctors and women are nurses. Too often in our society kids pick up these traditional gender stereotypes and it only hurts our society.
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What about looking at it another way. It seems that 99% of the nurses are female. So you see a female is it reasonable to think she is a nurse? Was the child thinking that way instead of thinking. Oh , I see a female she must not be the doctor.
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3. People need to leave these people alone. IMO they are not doing harm to their children and honestly the kids are likely to suffer more harm from the media if this continues.
With names like Jazz, Kio and Storm, these kids had never had a shot at a normal life. Seems evident to me that the single greatest obsticle to a normal life these kids will have are their own parents. Lets face it, this media storm is the fault of the parents themselves, so lay the blame where it belongs.
On point...
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Media reports suggest the parents, Witterick and Stocker, want their children to be gender creative. In trying to further this goal, they allow the two older boys "to make their own choices" with respect to clothing and hair styles (they wear pink feather boas, dresses and braids). As a result the boys are often mistaken for girls and other children do not want to play with "that girl-boy."
It occurs to me that a five and two year old would not know what a pink feather boa is without their parents introducing the concept. Likewise, if they are wearing dresses, they are doing so because their parents provided them. At those ages, I doubt this is a "free choice" by the kids. They are being led into decisions by their parents.
Personally, I am willing to bet that Storm is also male, and that all three kids are victims of parents who desperately wanted a girl. Genetics let them down, so it seems these parents seem intent on culturally ostracizing their own children to suit their own selfish wants.
With names like Jazz, Kio and Storm, these kids had never had a shot at a normal life. Seems evident to me that the single greatest obsticle to a normal life these kids will have are their own parents. Lets face it, this media storm is the fault of the parents themselves, so lay the blame where it belongs.
On point...
It occurs to me that a five and two year old would not know what a pink feather boa is without their parents introducing the concept. Likewise, if they are wearing dresses, they are doing so because their parents provided them. At those ages, I doubt this is a "free choice" by the kids. They are being led into decisions by their parents.
Personally, I am willing to bet that Storm is also male, and that all three kids are victims of parents who desperately wanted a girl. Genetics let them down, so it seems these parents seem intent on culturally ostracizing their own children to suit their own selfish wants.
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+1. These sound like some really bad parents. I feel so sorry for their children.
1. The parents are not planning on keeping the child's gender private forever, they are suggesting they let the child make up their own mind about who they are.
2. There are a lot worse things than parents who love their children unconditionally for who and what they are.
3. People need to leave these people alone. IMO they are not doing harm to their children and honestly the kids are likely to suffer more harm from the media if this continues.
Um yeah, that could be solved by not going public with this whole thing in the first place. "Look at me, I want attention!!"
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You aren't an ass, but you do come off as being incredibly naive if you think that Devil's Advocate provided concrete examples. You want a concrete example, check out the story of David Reimer. As an infant, his penis was burned off during a botched circumcision. So, not knowing what else to do, they performed a sex change operation on the child and attempted to raise the child as a girl. Despite all their efforts, the child rejected the female gender role. The child behaved in a distinctly masculine manner, are rejected what was typical of female child. The child eventually rejected the sex change and ended up living a very tragic. I feel that this far more "concrete" than DA's general observations that are clearly biased by his own preconceived notions.
This is a case of a child's gender role being forced. This is what these parents are trying not to do and are being lambasted for it.
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Originally Posted by Ark2
If I come off as being dramatic then it is only because I am so sick and tired of the vilification of gender roles. There is nothing wrong with girls wanting to play with dolls and boys wanting to play with trucks. Consequently, there is nothing wrong with women wanting to be nurses and men wanting to be engineers. What's important to me, however, is that if a woman wants to be an engineer or if a man wants to be a nurse, then there shouldn't be anything preventing them from doing that.
You are absolutely correct and all these parents are saying to their child is, be who you want to be and like what you want to like. They are NOT saying there is anything wrong with girls playing with dolls and boys playing with trucks. They are also not saying there is anything wrong with boys playing with dolls and girls playing with trucks.
They are simply giving their child the choice and the freedom to be who they want to be. I don't see why this is so awful.
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Originally Posted by Ark2
The reason people make those assumptions is because the majority of nurses are females. If more men became nurses, then people would gradually stop making those assumptions. As long as there is nothing prohibitive about such an assumption, then I don't see the problem.
The problem is respect. A lot of patients respect nurses far less than doctors. A lot of times I was working with female technologists who VASTLY outranked me in qualifications and experience and still the patients thought I was the person to talk to because I was a man. I think that is wrong.
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+1. These sound like some really bad parents. I feel so sorry for their children.
I feel so sorry for the other parents and their children who have been brainwashed into thinking that boys have to wear blue and play with trucks and girls have to wear pink and play with Barbies.
The only reason anyone sees anything wrong with this is because of the stigma from uneducated, ignorant parents and their children who buy into the tradional Johnny and Sally stereotypes.
This is similar, although not exactly the same, as two gay parents who have kids and people say it shouldn't be allowed because they know the kids will get picked on.
This kid will eventually figure out if he likes blue or pink better. Or maybe he'll realize he likes gray best and won't effing care about traditional gender roles.
I was listening to "The Agenda" podcast, a TVO show by Steve Paikin (the guy that moderated the English federal leaders debate), and they were discussing wage disparity between women and men. One expert said that the primary reason why women are now the majority in university, more likely to have bachelor degrees than men, but still lag in terms of average salary is because of these traditional gender roles. Women typically don't go into the sciences and end up with a Masters in Art History or a BA in Psychology. For example, English BA's go 68% to women, 32% to men. Average salary = $51,000/year. But Aerospace Engineering, Computer Engineering, Nuclear Engineering, Electrical Engineering are all 82% male. And all have average salaries above $80,000. And this expert on "The Agenda" said that it has nothing to do with women not being able to do the sciences, it's that these traditional gender roles sneak into the lives of both boys and girls and even with the best intentioned parents, the girls get taught that
Young women in a lot of bigger cities like NY are now making more money than their male counterparts.
They didn't go public AFAIK. They sent an e-mail to friends and family explaining their decision and the media came to them.
And the media came to them as a result of their company psychic 'detecting' an interesting story?
How do you suppose the media found out about it?
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More garbage. It couldn't be that most women just aren't interested in those things? Like it or not, there are innate differences between men and women and there always will be. What these parents are going to find is that their kid is going to move towards feminine or masculine roles depending on its gender regardless of what nonsense they promote about the child being sexless.
men have better spatio-temporal and logical/critical thinking skills developed during evolution. Women are programmed to think more emotionally and socially because of their development during evolution. And people are surprised women go into less scientific more social based areas of study? I guess once we all stop thinking a bearded man in the sky put us here we can start to think.
I'm betting that this post will just end up getting ignored.
Similarly that there are more women going into post secondary than men. This was trumpeted as an inequality when it was the other way around, but now it is a non issue.
As an aside, I have had 3 people near my age go through medical school and become young doctors recently and all have said that the majority of docs being trained nowadays are women and usually non caucasian.
I'd also presume that the people mistaking men for doctors are doing it not because they are sexist or conditioned to think that only men are doctors but because there is a greater risk of error going the other way as nursing is still very female dominated. When you ask a random dude in scrubs it is less likely that he will be a nurse vs a doctor just because nursing, not doctoring is much more biased towards women. But hey, the logical reason can always be construed as a societal issue that needs to be addressed urgently.
