Salvaging the honour of a family

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Banal comparison? Sure it's commonplace, and certainly predicable, but also accurate.

270 honour killings in Pakistan last year was it? How many gang killings do you suppose there were? Frankly, your war on religion is pretty banal.

The POINT was...sheesh..

IF we eliminated religion then people couldnt fight about it...you know...all those wars...all those millions and millions of people dead. Or how about just the Radicals of today?
Yes there will always be a few nutcases, some who are even Atheist or gang members, but to "suggest" that Atheist or other killings compare in sheer volume to those of religious whackos is simply sticking your head ...um...in the ground?

once again heres something I posted before just as a refresher...a few years old but stiill relevant.

Afghanistan Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan.
Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers. Côte d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christian Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.
Cyprus Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.
East Timor Christians & Muslims A Roman Catholic country. About 20% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable.
India Animists, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs Various conflicts that heat up periodically. In late 2002-FEB, a Muslim-Hindu conflict broke out, killing an average of 100 people a day over the first five days.
Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable. Indonesia, province of Halmahera Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.
Kashmir Hindus & Muslims A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.
Middle East Jews, Muslims, & Christians The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP and is continuing.
Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.
Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims Low level mutual attacks. Philippines Christians & Muslims Low level, centuries old conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country.
Russia,Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: "In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to 'blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia'." South Africa Animists & "Witches" Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practising black magic, are murdered each year.
Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war for independence since 1983 with the rest of the country (70% Buddhist). An estimated 65,000 have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation.
Sudan Animists, Christians & Muslims Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict which victimizes both Animists and Christians in the South of the country. Slavery and near slavery practiced. There are allegations of genocide.
Tibet Buddhists & Communists Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues.
Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct about 2,000 children a year who are enslaved and/or raped.

[FireFly]

So what you're saying is that without religion, these nutcases wouldn't find another reason to cause suffering? Give me a break Cheese. Said people will use whatever reason they can find to cause suffering. Religion just seems to be convenient, because it can be twisted (by those who wish to do so) into a torture device. You don't however bring up the religious who are the most loving and caring people you've ever met. Why is that? It's not like they aren't out there, you'd just rather ignore them as it doesn't suit your purposes.

Let me ask you this: was Hilter's crusade really a religious one? I mean, he targeted Jews, but I'm rather certain it has much more to do with him being fata'd in the head than anything else. The biggest war of our time... I don't think it was a religious crusade so much as a crazy man with too much power.

If we eliminated religion, people would find something else to argue about. That's the point I'm making.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So what you're saying is that without religion, these nutcases wouldn't find another reason to cause suffering? Give me a break Cheese. Said people will use whatever reason they can find to cause suffering. Religion just seems to be convenient, because it can be twisted (by those who wish to do so) into a torture device. You don't however bring up the religious who are the most loving and caring people you've ever met. Why is that? It's not like they aren't out there, you'd just rather ignore them as it doesn't suit your purposes.

Let me ask you this: was Hilter's crusade really a religious one? I mean, he targeted Jews, but I'm rather certain it has much more to do with him being fata'd in the head than anything else. The biggest war of our time... I don't think it was a religious crusade so much as a crazy man with too much power.

If we eliminated religion, people would find something else to argue about. That's the point I'm making.

I'm not as anti-religious as Cheese, but I agree that killing in the name of religion is a far worse problem then killing in the name of something else. People would not just find something else to argue about. That's a cop-out. The fact is that only religion is powerful and convincing enough to be twisted to the extent in which it has. Your example of WW2 is full of religious conflict.
Would Hitler have been able to gather the support he did if it wasn't for religion? Would people have really supported him killing jews if there was no such thing as jews or christians and they didn't have their historical religious differences?

[FireFly]

You missed my point. sure many people kill in the name of religion, but those who wish to kill will find any excuse they can to get people to back them. Hitler used his hatred for Jews to get the backing of the nation. Were all Germans anti-Jew? No. Many just wanted someone to blame for WWI, and the Jews seemed an easy scapegoat. You're right, religion is a powerful convincer, but it isn't the only one. To say that those who want to kill wouldn't be able to without religion is bogus. Many wars were started over territory, expansionism, imperialism...

If I wanted to kill you, it wouldn't matter if I claimed God made me do it or you looked at me funny. Saying God made me do it takes the responsibility off my own shoulders though, makes it a crusade, makes me a martyr, and generally absolves me of the crime. Others who believe in God might applaud me if I was convincing enough. The point is, it's a cop out, and not the real reason it's done. If a person wants to kill, they will.

Again, how many gang killings this year? Gangs are powerful enough to convince others to back them... it's a companionship or a brotherhood, if you will. If there was no religion to create 'brotherhoods' humans would find something else to do the same thing.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

You missed my point. sure many people kill in the name of religion, but those who wish to kill will find any excuse they can to get people to back them. Hitler used his hatred for Jews to get the backing of the nation. Were all Germans anti-Jew? No. Many just wanted someone to blame for WWI, and the Jews seemed an easy scapegoat. You're right, religion is a powerful convincer, but it isn't the only one. To say that those who want to kill wouldn't be able to without religion is bogus. Many wars were started over territory, expansionism, imperialism...

If I wanted to kill you, it wouldn't matter if I claimed God made me do it or you looked at me funny. Saying God made me do it takes the responsibility off my own shoulders though, makes it a crusade, makes me a martyr, and generally absolves me of the crime. Others who believe in God might applaud me if I was convincing enough. The point is, it's a cop out, and not the real reason it's done. If a person wants to kill, they will.

Again, how many gang killings this year? Gangs are powerful enough to convince others to back them... it's a companionship or a brotherhood, if you will. If there was no religion to create 'brotherhoods' humans would find something else to do the same thing.

Ms Fly...The problem with what you chew is that you dont believe in Religion the way the majority do. You have suggested on many times that you take the parts that fit your lifestyle the best. Unfortunately IF you are right about religion in general you may have a hard time getting past the Pearlies because you dont follow the "book".
Your other problem is that you keep wanting to shuffle the blame or focus elsewhere. Why cant we simply try to rid ourselves of Religion and find out the differences? In my mind there are only two things that create wars...besides lunacy...thats Religion and Borders. Both divide the people and create false ideals. Your idea that IF there were no religion, people would find another idea to kill people is simply a guess. We KNOW for sure that Religion is the cause of great strife in this world, and for every good person Id suggest there are 1000s who are absolute hypocrites when it comes to how they follow their particular "brand". We already know that gangs are idiots...so the fact that gangs kill...and religions kill...must put them in the same boat?

[4X4]

Uh, don't want to inturrupt the flow of this debate, but Cheese, not all religons force you to follow the book. In fact, many actually implore you to find your own interpretation. Which, I guess, puts us back at square one...


The other thing I want to mention is that there is a third thing to add to the list of "common reasons for war" that would be money/accumulation of wealth. Or varations thereof.
Maybe along the same train of thought as borders, but definitely not the same.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Uh, don't want to inturrupt the flow of this debate, but Cheese, not all religons force you to follow the book. In fact, many actually implore you to find your own interpretation. Which, I guess, puts us back at square one...


The other thing I want to mention is that there is a third thing to add to the list of "common reasons for war" that would be money/accumulation of wealth. Or varations thereof.
Maybe along the same train of thought as borders, but definitely not the same.

Ok Ill bite...why dont you list the "major" religions that allow its people to follow their own literal interpretations of the bible or any other holy book?

As to the money thing...a small part Im sure...the "major" issues are always religion and borders. Money would follow in the borders end by being a have country as opposed to a have not.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Ok Ill bite...why dont you list the "major" religions that allow its people to follow their own literal interpretations of the bible or any other holy book?

OK... Christianity. Islam. Um, those are the only two that I'm for sure about... Oh, and I didn;t say literal. Not sure you meant to put that in there, but my point was that certain religons have sectors (christianity has crhistian reformed, presbeteryn, others) that have varying degrees of "this is law, this is your choice".

As for the money thing, I didn;t mean to derail the point you were making. I actually agree with the religion and border take. I think that money is a definite third muskateer. Think of all the conquoring of lands by empires for no real reason except pillaging and bragging rights... Not like the romans invaded egypt for the land... They wanted the treasures, right?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Not like the romans invaded egypt for the land... They wanted the treasures, right?

Ceasar was horny!

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Ms Fly...The problem with what you chew is that you dont believe in Religion the way the majority do. You have suggested on many times that you take the parts that fit your lifestyle the best. Unfortunately IF you are right about religion in general you may have a hard time getting past the Pearlies because you dont follow the "book".
Your other problem is that you keep wanting to shuffle the blame or focus elsewhere. Why cant we simply try to rid ourselves of Religion and find out the differences? In my mind there are only two things that create wars...besides lunacy...thats Religion and Borders. Both divide the people and create false ideals. Your idea that IF there were no religion, people would find another idea to kill people is simply a guess. We KNOW for sure that Religion is the cause of great strife in this world, and for every good person Id suggest there are 1000s who are absolute hypocrites when it comes to how they follow their particular "brand". We already know that gangs are idiots...so the fact that gangs kill...and religions kill...must put them in the same boat?

I'm quite certain that in the New Testament, which Christians are 'supposed' to follow, it tells people to love one another, and no longer does 'an eye for an eye' apply. SO why then, would ANY Christian kill? It's obviously against the 'rules'.

For every good person there are 1000s of *******s or idiots period. Religious or not.

What do you consider lunacy? Would not fighting/killing over borders and religion be lunacy? Doesn't any person have to be less than sane to take another life? Why do you pin it on religion? How about we just say that there are lunatics who think their religion tells them to kill. Does that make it the religion's fault it was misinterpreted?

[troutman]

I remember watching a CBC documentary on this subject:

Crimes of Honour
Television documentary about the practice of honour killing in Jordan and the West Bank.