Airport Tunnel Rejected Again? **UPDATE** It's built!

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by GGG

What really bothers me is that the Airport Authority isn't accountable to anyone. In the end they are accountable to the feds but obviously they won't step in.

So we have a Monopolistic corporation with no accountability and that can unilaterly set fees and be obstructionist. The Airport Authority should be serving the needs of the city. An the elected representitives of the City want to pay for a tunnel therefore the AA should allow them to build that tunnel.

What also bugs me is the airport improvement fees that are again unilaterally set with little oversight and accountability

Completely agree with this except that they really aren't accountable to the feds either. Their obligation is to pay the lease, that's it. Airport authorities in their current form are a disaster, and the minister who oversaw it in the 80's had admitted it.

[You Need a Thneed]

Council voted 9-6 in favour of sending the airport authority a counter proposal. The airport now has until Tuesday afternoon to approve the deal. John Mar voted yes this time around, while he voted no for the February vote. That's why this one was 9-6 and the February vote was 8-7.

The counter proposal by the city is that they city will build the tunnel and road connection only from Barlow to 36th Street NE, leaving out the section of road between 36th Street and 60th Street unfinshed for now. The city proposes that they will build the interchanges that the airport demanded when they build the rest of the road. The city would build the second part with future money given to the city by the province, an extension of the MSI funding, or something like that.

By my calculations, that means the city commited to spending roughly $270 million now, and about $70 million sometime in the future when they want to build the rest of the road.

It's certainly better than nothing, the actual tunnel was the important part, but it will serve a lot less people without a direct connection to Stoney for a first number of years. My contention that people in the deep south would take the tunnel via stoney trail goes out the window until the second part is completed.

It will also be a little bit of a weird connection, as it won't connect directly to Metis Trail, which will become the main N/S road later this year when it opens. However, 36th Street will become sort of a tunnel connection road, and not many other people will use it.

A different proposal to just build the shell of the tunnel was not supported by council, and I agree with them there. It would be ridiculous to spend ~$160 million plus financing costs to build something that provides no value at all until it could be completed at a future date. Not only would it have no use, but it would have to be monitored, and kept safe.

The airport authority didn't seem to negotiate in good faith. It seemed like they kept adding to their demands, and especially at the last minute, first of all last week, saying that they wanted interchanges built when traffic reached a certain level. Then, it came out today that the Airport wanted the interchanges open on day 1 of the tunnel. The city's calculations figured that the interchanges would only be required by 2029, 18 years away. It seems that the Airport was really worried about the traffic on opening day, which is pretty absurd. On opening day, it won't connect to much at all. On twitter, there were tunnel opponents that felt that the airport seemed to be trying to extort the city, which is weird, since the interchanges they are demanding only benefit the airport a marginal amount.

I'm glad to see it go ahead (provided the airport accepts the counter proposal, which they'd be crazy not to, IMO). It will provide a decent E/W connection in the north, especially across Deerfoot. I've seen a few of the plans, and the tunnel is as much as 19 metres below existing grade. It has to be, because the runway surface itself is supposed to be well below the existing grade there, as that part is pretty much the high point of the existing ground in the new runway area.

[BlackArcher101]

Absolute bull that they demand the interchanges are in place on day 1.

Does the estimated $270 million for the first phase include interchanges at 19th, Barlow, and 36th still? With only a road and interchange at Metis trail? Or does the Metis trail project include the interchange in it's scope?

[You Need a Thneed]

no, the $270M doesn't include the interchanges, they would be part of the $70M cost at a later date.

No interchanges have been funded for Metis Trail, they will be quite a few years away. The initial cost of $295M included road connection to Metis and then to 60th Street, these have now been cut so that the Airport is hopefully appeased that the traffic will not be too much to require the interchanges right away. I get the $270M number by subtracting the cost of those road sections in the initial report that stated $295 million.

I haven't seen any media confirming that $270M number. A calgary Herald reporter is reporting $345 million, but I'm assuming that that must be the total number for both phases, since they are doing less work initially then was approved in February.

[BlackArcher101]

Yikes... no interchanges included in the first phase? I think it'd be hard pressed to be remotely close to $70mil for the interchanges. (Unless they do grading then add road later like they did on Stoney?)

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Yikes... no interchanges included in the first phase? I think it'd be hard pressed to be remotely close to $70mil for the interchanges. (Unless they do grading then add road later like they did on Stoney?)

Why not? They're pretty straight forward interchanges, which aren't too expensive. A good example would be Beddington/Country Hills. It came to around $25 million to build that, and it's a little more complicated than some.

Glenmore/Elbow/5th Street was $100 million.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Me too. I don't mind the government giving the teams a loan, but giving money to millionaires and billionaires for them to profit should be a no go.

Apparently you didn't get the memo, this is exactly how and why millionaires and billionaires are millionaires and billionaires.

[SebC]

So the airport authority would rather have a road that goes nowhere that has interchanges on it than a road that goes somewhere with no interchanges? Thanks for that, a**holes.

[Slava]

Once all the interchanges are in place I wonder how close this will actually be to $500 million? $345 million now plus some interchanges and next thing you know the budget for any other infrastructure is totally spent....

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Slava

Once all the interchanges are in place I wonder how close this will actually be to $500 million? $345 million now plus some interchanges and next thing you know the budget for any other infrastructure is totally spent....

I'm pretty sure the $345 million number is the total for both phases (including the interchanges). The original proposal was $295 million, the first phase they are proposing now is less work than that. The report says the things that wer cut cost $24 million. That means that phase 1 will cost roughly $270 million, and phase two will cost roughly $75 million. This would mean that the interchanges would cost about $50 million, which sounds about right. There are two, but I think they are pretty simple half diamond interchanges (each one doesn't have full ramps).

The financial situation this new proposal puts the city in is a little better than the original one, as there is less cost now, and phase two will have to wait until the province gives the city some more cash. When the province does give cash, phase two will have to be one of the first things built, IMO. It will be needed by then (the road connection that is, not the interchanges).

[Sr. Mints]

Wasn't it Bob Hawksworth who was all but laughed at for saying this thing would end up costing a half billion dollars in the end?

[Bunk]

$345m gets yo a free flow road from Stoney to harvest hills. Remember, it costs MORE total to go around the runway if the tunnel is not built, including major upgrades to Metis and Country Hills that become necessary. Oh, and no tunnel pretty much screws us for ever providing effective LRT to the terminal.

[You Need a Thneed]

Hawkesworth's contention was always that the construction cost was $500M, a whopping $800 million with financing costs.

the original price guesses by Nenshi, and anyone who had actually costed it out, was roughly $150 million, which is pretty close to what it still is.

Thinking about this new deal some more, I really think that despite the higher total, it doesn't strain the city's finances quite as much, since there is less money being put forward now. The rest of the money will be paid when the city has more money from the province. In the original $295 million proposal, the city was going to pay the whole total now.

Again the rough cost estimates from the orignal $295 million proposal from February:
Tunnel shell: $165 million (includes 30% contingency, normally 10%)
Road through tunnel: $30 million
Airport Trail construction from 36th St to 60th st: $24 million (cut out of new proposal until second phase - also, would be required to be constructed some day whether tunnel is built or not)
Concessions to the airport + financing costs: ~$70 million.

In the new proposal, the total cost is $345 million, but i'm guessing that the concessions to the airport+ financing costs is a little bit lower than the original proposal.

Breakdown (my calculated guess):

Phase 1:
Tunnel shell: $165 million (see contingency above)
Road through tunnel: $30 million
Concessions to airport + financing costs: $60 million

Phase 2:
Airport trail roads: $24 million
Interchanges: $65 million

(totals won't quite all match up exactly, but you get the idea)

I really doubt the the whole contingency is going to be used up. The tunnel shell is really a simple to construct project. The only uncertain thing is the excavation into bedrock.

[You Need a Thneed]

Looking at the letter from the Airport to the city from Thursday, the Airport is proposing to pay for over 50% of the interchange costs. That's why the city's share may seem small. You can see the interchange designs here. (scroll to the last two pages of the document)

It also should be noted that the "people mover" from the west that the airport talks about is almost certainly a dead idea in the city's eyes (see the NC LRT open houses coming up this week). The north Central LRT will be running up Harvest Hills Blvd, and not Nose Creek at that point - meaning that it'll be a shorter distance to the NE line instead of the NC line (also, the NC LRT line is likely 20ish years away from construction). Also, leaving both directions available, allows a crosstown route that connects both ways to be built, making the value of building the connection greater. Airport LRT projects have had low ridership in other cities, a crosstown route would certainly help that.

Also, the airport's "independent transportation engineers" that determined that interchanges would be required on day one and completely out to lunch. Looking at a city of Calgary traffic count map, roads can handle a lot of traffic per day without interchanges. Airport Trail could easily be 3 lanes each direction, and handle 60-70,000 vehicles a day without interchanges. I can't see how there would be much more than 40,000 per day until much more of the NE undeveloped area fills in.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Looking at the letter from the Airport to the city from Thursday, the Airport is proposing to pay for over 50% of the interchange costs. That's why the city's share may seem small. You can see the interchange designs here. (scroll to the last two pages of the document)

That's good to hear about the Airport pitching in for the interchanges.

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

It also should be noted that the "people mover" from the west that the airport talks about is almost certainly a dead idea in the city's eyes (see the NC LRT open houses coming up this week). The north Central LRT will be running up Harvest Hills Blvd, and not Nose Creek at that point - meaning that it'll be a shorter distance to the NE line instead of the NC line (also, the NC LRT line is likely 20ish years away from construction). Also, leaving both directions available, allows a crosstown route that connects both ways to be built, making the value of building the connection greater. Airport LRT projects have had low ridership in other cities, a crosstown route would certainly help that.

The Nose Creek alignment for North Central LRT is far from dead, and a routing specifically up Centre Street is even further from a certainty. It will require a significant voice from the community denouncing the Nose Creek alignment and supporting a more central (Centre Street or Edmonton Trail one). Even then it will require even more political will to overcome the cost difference and other trade-offs between them. That's why it's important to get the voice out early on it (hint hint: attend the open houses and/or send your comments in via e-mail everyone).

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Slava

Once all the interchanges are in place I wonder how close this will actually be to $500 million? $345 million now plus some interchanges and next thing you know the budget for any other infrastructure is totally spent....

While it won't be $500M as described above, I'm fine with having limited money for other infrastructure for a few years if it means getting this piece done, and I'm probably the first person to declare that there is still an infrastructure deficit and things need to get built now.

There's some big time projects ongoing in most areas of the city. The southeast has the ring road, the northeast has the LRT extension, airport tunnel and Metis Trail work, the west side has the West LRT and the northwest has the Crowchild/Stoney work and LRT extension.

All that work will take us to 2014, with most of it ending in 2012/2013. Investment is a little light south and west of Glenmore, and in the north central areas, the SW ring road can change that. This would logically follow the southeast ring road work and involves provincial dollars. A different funding model will likely be used for the southeast LRT, starting sometime before 2017. When the projects in the northeast and on the west side wrap up, those areas will be pretty well set for quite awhile, allowing concentration to shift to other areas.

Anyway, I guess my point in all this is to say that even though there is still an infrastructure deficit, there is a pretty big package ongoing, and given the temporal sensitivity of the airport tunnel, I can stomach a couple light years of infrastructure projects if it means getting this one done and done right.

[Slava]

^ I haven't looked at a map this weekend (and I'm pretty visual, so it might help me understand), but is this rendition of the tunnel "getting it done right"? From my limited understanding it seems pretty limited?

I still find myself torn on the tunnel in a few areas, so I'm not likely the best gauge anyway. I guess without this we'll never have the LRT to the airport....while it's a different discussion I wonder about how necessary that is? There are some potential traffic flow concerns without the tunnel I guess, but in the latest incarnation I'm not sure that these are all solved either? By the time the tunnel and all of the interchanges are completed the whole thing could well be a "nice to have" as opposed to something really necessary?

I don't know though. There are some smarter people than me in favour of this thing. At the end of the day I guess I am I favor if it's tolled and pays for itself.

[Table 5]

So what's the deal with the tunnel? I thought the final super last decision was going to come down on Tuesday?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Table 5

So what's the deal with the tunnel? I thought the final super last decision was going to come down on Tuesday?

Airport Authority said there was too much information to make a snap decision by Tuesday at 5 so they delayed.

They appear to be doing anything they can to block the project without actually saying "No".

[Bigtime]

I believe the word is that we will hear from the CAA today.