Kirk Cameron Attacks Stephen Hawking

[flames85]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Possibly my favourite post in the history of the internet.

Great response! Easy to say things until the tables are turned.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

Show me facts?

Facts for what?

Evidence for Christianity? The earliest known fragment of the New Testament in the original Greek is P52

http://www.kchanson.com/ancdocs/greek/johnpap.html

Which is dated to the 2nd century, so that's evidence that Christianity existed close to 2000 years ago, but there's nothing before that, so that puts a timeframe on Christianity.

The NT itself claims to describe events around year 0, so it would be irrational to claim that Christianity existed before year zero when the books themselves don't even claim it.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You are a liar and I would request that you fix the quote I did not make and if not I would ask moderators to do so and then ban this person for mis-representation of something i never said and would never condone.

Fixed. Now tell me how the water fountain argument isn't equivalent to yours.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Do you think that humans have been worshipping the God of Abraham since the dawn of time?

Abraham, the father of the monotheistic Jewish faith (and by extension Christianity and Islam), is said to have lived around 1900BC. There are many polytheistic religions that pre-date that time.

Read my posts. I said i didn't know. I wanted you to show me some facts. someone said it earlier, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. ... or is that only the case for christians?

[MarchHare]

What are you talking about? No one is making them "conform" to anything. Unless the spoken word is "making to conform", in which case I sure hope they stifle the valedictorian at the same time!

The ONLY thing they have to do...is sit quietly and listen to whatever is being said...no one is making them believe it and no one is making them live it...as far as peers go at any rate.

From the Supreme Court ruling that banned prayer at public high school graduation ceremonies:

As we have observed before, there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools. Our decisions in [Engel] and [Abington] recognize, among other things, that prayer exercises in public schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. The concern may not be limited to the context of schools, but it is most pronounced there. What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, in a school context may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v._Weisman

[flames85]

Originally Posted by photon

There was a time when far more people believed in some other god or gods than you do.

...facts for this.

[robocop]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Oh, man. Not another multiple-page God-exists-no-he-doesn't thread.

you are a prophet. I'll write it down in a book and tell everyone you are magical. Now... about this whole religion thing

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

From the Supreme Court ruling that banned prayer at public high school graduation ceremonies:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_v._Weisman

heck of a post..has nothing to do with what I said...nothing. But well done...i guess.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Fixed. Now tell me how the water fountain argument isn't equivalent to yours.

No.

you are a liar and a fraud...i will devote no more time to you and your lying ways.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by flames85

Read my posts. I said i didn't know. I wanted you to show me some facts. someone said it earlier, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. ... or is that only the case for christians?

Ok, but this is seriously something you should have been taught in high school history class...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religions

[flames85]

Originally Posted by transplant99

heck of a post..has nothing to do with what I said...nothing. But well done...i guess.

besides everyone knows wikipedia isn't a credible reference.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

What are you talking about? No one is making them "conform" to anything. Unless the spoken word is "making to conform", in which case I sure hope they stifle the valedictorian at the same time!

The ONLY thing they have to do...is sit quietly and listen to whatever is being said...no one is making them believe it and no one is making them live it...as far as peers go at any rate.

There is a thing called common sense that gets tossed out in all these debates...everyone is free to do and think as they wish regardless of whatever else someone else says. In fact you and I are doing that very thing right now. I am not harmed by your differences and your vociferous defending of them, and vice-versa.


See?

I actually have to agree that it's pretty silly for people to get worked up over a prayer at a ceremony, or a religious inscription on a public statue. I wish everyone, could just get over themselves and appreciate other people and beliefs, in most cases, like this one, it's so unobtrusive it's silly. Just tune it out if you don't like it.

However, as rights and freedoms go, it is technically wrong. It's much easier and morally correct, to remove an activity that some people might find offensive, than to remove the people who have a right to be there.

I think the big problem is not cases like this, but what they could lead to. Who then dictates how many prayers are said how often? Then, when does a nice little tradition turn into a form of bullying or indoctrination.

As I said before, in this example, I really get down on people who are complaining. And most situations like this do fall under your common sense rule.

However, because society is the way it is, you just need to have a blanket rule. And therefore, if someone is offended by the prayer, you have to get rid of it.

The common sense rule can easily be applied in many cases, on every side, and it's not only the faithful that get the short stick sometimes.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Ok, but this is seriously something you should have been taught in high school history class...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religions

This is your fact? Really?
Ever been to college/university? wikipedia isn't an acceptable reference, as anyone can edit it. Some real facts please!

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by flames85

...facts for this.

There's no need to go back in history. Today there are far more non-Christians than Christians in the world.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

(Sizes shown are approximate estimates, and are here mainly for the purpose of ordering the groups, not providing a definitive number. This list is sociological/statistical in perspective.)

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.5 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by flames85

...facts for this.

He gave you facts above. Christianity was started about 1800 years ago. And even if you want to go with the birth of Christ, than approx. 2000 years ago.

Are you saying no one believed anything before that?

Or are you saying there were no people before that?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by flames85

besides everyone knows wikipedia isn't a credible reference.

LOL, you're going to play that card? I linked wikipedia because the information is presented in an easier-to-read format.

Here are some links to the exact same quote I posted above from the original Supreme Court decision. Are FindLaw and Cornell University Law School credible enough sources for you?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=505&invol=577
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/90-1014.ZS.html

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by flames85

...facts for this.

I can't believe you want facts for a pretty well known area. The most obvious ones are:

Ancient Egyptian Religions

Ancient Greek Religions

Hell, Christianity didn't really take a foothold until the tail end of the Roman empire who. . . gasp. . . also had their own religion.

Also, if you have a problem with wikipedia, check out the copious amounts of primary literature each of those wiki-articles reference.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You are a liar and I would request that you fix the quote I did not make and if not I would ask moderators to do so and then ban this person for mis-representation of something i never said and would never condone.

You can't be serious. Can you?

[flames85]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

LOL, you're going to play that card? I linked wikipedia because the information is presented in an easier-to-read format.

Here are some links to the exact same quote I posted above from the original Supreme Court decision. Are FindLaw and Cornell University Law School credible enough sources for you?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=505&invol=577
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/90-1014.ZS.html

No the point i am getting at is just because someone wrote it doesn't mean it fact by an atheist account / rules. you need proof right? just because the bible is in writing means its not fact, as such are your proof of facts.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by flames85

This is your fact? Really?
Ever been to college/university? wikipedia isn't an acceptable reference, as anyone can edit it. Some real facts please!

So sick of people mentioning that Wikipedia isn't a credible source.

It absolutely is.

Anyone can edit it, but if you edit something of importance it will be edited back within the hour and Wikipedia will track down your IP and ban you from editing if you're effing around.