Kirk Cameron Attacks Stephen Hawking

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Gozer

False equivalency.

Atheists do not exceed the audacity of "you deserve to burn in hell for eternity."

Nobody is saying that when they bow their heads and pray.

False comparison.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Demanding that his school adhere to the US Constitution and not illegally recite a prayer is questionable and suspicious?

The whole point is it's a freaking prayer. If someone is seriously affected by someone else praying in their presence, then I think they need to have their head examined for other mental issues. Seriously. Ok, so technically it's unconstitutional. But it's idiotic to create such a fuss over such a small issue.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nobody is saying that when they bow their heads and pray.

False comparison.

You assertion was that theists do not have the same audacity as atheists.
That assertion is false.

[photon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

his decision was questionable and his reasoning completely suspicious at best.

Questionable decisions are what kids do best. And any projection of "suspicious" reasoning is itself suspicious IMO. No one knows the whole context.

Kids can be cruel at the best of times even without ammunition. I know I got a LOT of harassment and abuse (some physical) because of my religious beliefs in high school.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Just because soemone wants to pray...means nothing. Particularly to those who dont believe to begin with...yet they are making the most noise about this it seems.

Most noise? Kid writes a letter asking the school comply with the law is more noise than kid getting death threats, booted from family, etc?

No one's stopping anyone from praying.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by transplant99

No matter what the kids motivations were/are/wanna be...his decision was questionable and his reasoning completely suspicious at best.

Just because soemone wants to pray...means nothing. Particularly to those who dont believe to begin with...yet they are making the most noise about this it seems.

How is the act of graduating from a High School a religious experience (other than qualifying as a miracle for some of the kids)?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

The whole point is it's a freaking prayer. If someone is seriously affected by someone else praying in their presence, then I think they need to have their head examined for other mental issues. Seriously. Ok, so technically it's unconstitutional. But it's idiotic to create such a fuss over such a small issue.

No sane person would be offended by having someone else recite a prayer in their presence, and that's not even the issue we're debating.

Many sane people object to agents of a secular government (the public school administration in this case) forcing religion on a group when doing so is unconstitutional.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Nobody has proven that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist either.

The burden of proof belongs to the person making a claim. Nobody has to prove that God doesn't exist; the onus is on believers to prove that he does. Until evidence clearly demonstrating the existence of God is presented, then the logical position to take is that he doesn't, just as we don't believe that Zeus, Thor, Isis, and the gods of every other ancient religion exist.

Logical in your mind. I can say your illogical for not believing. I'm not gonna get into this debate. As I said earlier, the fact that some atheists' are so passionate about this subject makes me wonder. If you were so certain that God didn't exist you would not care.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by photon

Questionable decisions are what kids do best. And any projection of "suspicious" reasoning is itself suspicious IMO. No one knows the whole context.

Kids can be cruel at the best of times even without ammunition. I know I got a LOT of harassment and abuse (some physical) because of my religious beliefs in high school.



Most noise? Kid writes a letter asking the school comply with the law is more noise than kid getting death threats, booted from family, etc?

No one's stopping anyone from praying.

Death threats over this need to be investigated and prosecuted. My opposition to the initial complaint by this kid does not mean I endorse the actions of his opponents.

[photon]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

The whole point is it's a freaking prayer. If someone is seriously affected by someone else praying in their presence, then I think they need to have their head examined for other mental issues. Seriously. Ok, so technically it's unconstitutional. But it's idiotic to create such a fuss over such a small issue.

It's not about someone else praying in their presence, no one is saying people cannot pray in school.

It's unconstitutional for a reason, if you dislike the constitution then that's the argument you should be making.

[Calgaryborn]

Here is a letter between Thomas Jefferson and a Baptist association:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=65

You will notice that this separation of church and State was intended to protect churches and individuals from interference by the government. It was never intended to silent religious expression but, rather up hold it.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The PC crowd is alive and well I see....

No matter what the kids motivations were/are/wanna be...his decision was questionable and his reasoning completely suspicious at best.

Just because soemone wants to pray...means nothing. Particularly to those who dont believe to begin with...yet they are making the most noise about this it seems.

If someone says to me or you..."god bless you"...are you or I to be offended? If so, start with Obama cause he ends every speech with it. If someone says "amen" what part of that do you take umbrage with?

The intolerance runs both ways in this situation but only one side has the audacity to call the other out on it. Its the same thing every thread that has this nonsense in it.

I guess you're saying it's PC to observe the law of the land in this regard.

Who cares if the school is flaunting the law? Right? Apparently religious zealotry trumps the Supreme Court.

If the prayer is so insignificant as some have suggested, why is the school insisting on it?

[Reggie Dunlop]

"There is no force in the world more powerful than a teenager who has a good idea."

- Naheed Nenshi

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Demanding that his school adhere to the US Constitution and not illegally recite a prayer is questionable and suspicious?

Praying is not illegal....in fact the constitution protects the right to do so...you should read it sometime, its a great document.

What you are attempting to say is a Supreme Court ruling that states...

there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect

What I am saying is that nothing that this school does when it comes to praying to a god that this already kid doesnt believe in, will change a thing in his life. Nothing. Period.

So he is doing no more than stirring up a hornets nest of crap that had no other ending than to come back and sting him right in the nose.

Was he within his rights to do so? Of course he was. Was it worth it and did it accomplish anything? Nope.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by flames85

Logical in your mind. I can say your illogical for not believing. I'm not gonna get into this debate. As I said earlier, the fact that some atheists' are so passionate about this subject makes me wonder. If you were so certain that God didn't exist you would not care.

I care because I want to live in a secular society where the government is "religious-neutral", neither forcing any particular religious belief on society as a whole nor preventing anyone from privately practicing any faith of their choosing (so long as it's non-violent and doesn't affect anyone but the voluntary adherents of the religion).

Prayer in a public school is an infringement on the rights of non-religious students and students who practice a different religion.

And I'm not certain that God doesn't exist. I know of no atheist who would make that claim with 100% confidence.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Here is a letter between Thomas Jefferson and a Baptist association:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=65

You will notice that this separation of church and State was intended to protect churches and individuals from interference by the government. It was never intended to silent religious expression but, rather up hold it.

In your version of history at least.

[MarchHare]

Praying is not illegal....in fact the constitution protects the right to do so...you should read it sometime, its a great document.

What you are attempting to say is a Supreme Court ruling that states...

A school administration enforcing prayer at a public school IS illegal as determined by the Supreme Court.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I guess you're saying it's PC to observe the law of the land in this regard.

Who cares if the school is flaunting the law? Right? Apparently religious zealotry trumps the Supreme Court.

If the prayer is so insignificant as some have suggested, why is the school insisting on it?

Best point in this thread.

And its a simple answer...its what the large majority believe. Its not what I believe, its not what you believe, but we are in the minority at this point in this situation. however, if its what the community wants and what the community is invested in, and no one is being hurt by it...then by all means they shoudl be allowed to proceed as they see fit.

It goes back to my original point that the kids claim that he is "stressed" by it all....is a load of crap. there is nothing, and I mean nothing, that anyone beside me can pray for that isnt illegal or hrtful that can cause me anyt kind of "stress". Its words to a deity I dont believe in....therefore has absolutely no bearing on anything going forward.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

A school administration enforcing prayer at a public school IS illegal as determined by the Supreme Court.

Praying is NOT illegal...read what I said.

But knowuing you hold yourself as the "tolerant" one, I expect that you will keep harping on the same point...so carry on.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

Logical in your mind.

Logic isn't subjective.

Originally Posted by flames85

I can say your illogical for not believing.

I could say you are illogical for not believing I have an invisible dragon in my garage too. The question is is it in fact illogical?

Originally Posted by flames85

As I said earlier, the fact that some atheists' are so passionate about this subject makes me wonder. If you were so certain that God didn't exist you would not care.

Define passionate.

You're on a discussion forum, which by its very nature is going to be filled with people who like to discuss things, who like to get a portion of their social interaction online.

So if there's a thread that interests them, they'll discuss it.

Not to mention religion is one of the most influential forces in the world, so discussing it makes perfect sense.

And people's spiritual journeys are something that they like to share and discuss, since we're social animals.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by Gozer

How many examples of murder can you provide that were justified with atheism?

How about wars of atheistic communism? Russia, China?

Now relax, i'm not saying all atheist are bad. But like i said earlier there are radical christians and atheists alike. so just because some nut in the states is protesting a soldiers funeral doesn't mean all christians should be painted the same way. I'll be the first to admit there are some christians that I wish weren't just for the false image they portray!