Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[RW99]

301 down Crowchild please! And while we are at it, they should move 72/73 to Crowchild, if only for me

[Bunk]

So the Mayor's Innovation Fund project for an airport-downtown BRT was passed by Council tonight. Route will start by Stampede. If route is successful after the pilot, it will be made permanent. One more campaign promise met - much, much more to come.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Bunk

So the Mayor's Innovation Fund project for an airport-downtown BRT was passed by Council tonight. Route will start by Stampede. If route is successful after the pilot, it will be made permanent. One more campaign promise met - much, much more to come.

To be more specific, the route will run Airport Trail- Deerfoot - 64th Ave - Centre Street into downtown. Next year, when 96th Ave connects to Deerfoot on the west side, the route will go Airport Trail - Centre Street into Downtown.

It will be a BRT, so it will only stop at the BRT stops on Centre Street. This will serve to add capacity to the existing 301 line up centre street, especially for people further south down the line, where 301 buses are often already full.

A full express bus taking Deerfoot all the way was considered, but it would be in direct competition with the private operators who already have contracts to provide the same service.

There will be a fare premium to get on at the airport terminal only. To get on at the airport, it will cost $8, to get on anywhere else, it will cost the regular fare. Monthly pass holders will not have to pay the fare premium, but the way I read it, book of 10 tickets will not get you on to the bus at the terminal.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

To be more specific, the route will run Airport Trail- Deerfoot - 64th Ave - Centre Street into downtown. Next year, when 96th Ave connects to Deerfoot on the west side, the route will go Airport Trail - Centre Street into Downtown.

It will be a BRT, so it will only stop at the BRT stops on Centre Street. This will serve to add capacity to the existing 301 line up centre street, especially for people further south down the line, where 301 buses are often already full.

A full express bus taking Deerfoot all the way was considered, but it would be in direct competition with the private operators who already have contracts to provide the same service.

There will be a fare premium to get on at the airport terminal only. To get on at the airport, it will cost $8, to get on anywhere else, it will cost the regular fare. Monthly pass holders will not have to pay the fare premium, but the way I read it, book of 10 tickets will not get you on to the bus at the terminal.

That's a pretty brutal premium to pay. I thought the idea of something like this was to make the airport more accessable, so you might take a bit of a financial hit on it. If you're traveling with more than one person I bet most will say "F it" and just take a cab.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

That's a pretty brutal premium to pay. I thought the idea of something like this was to make the airport more accessable, so you might take a bit of a financial hit on it. If you're traveling with more than one person I bet most will say "F it" and just take a cab.

People travelling with more than one person would more likely take a cab anyway.

The fare premium is similar to what other cities have (i.e. Vancouver).

[Ozy_Flame]

Just read the proposed rout adjustments for West Calgary. I don't agree with removing the 101, 104 and 301 from going into the Core; now we're almost forced to take the C-Train at Westbrook which is going to be jam packed. We essentially have to wait for the 70 to come by, that's going to be full by the time it reaches the Westbrook stop.

I thought the C-Train was to reduce the amount of bus transit, not practically completely eliminate it??

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

That's a pretty brutal premium to pay. I thought the idea of something like this was to make the airport more accessable, so you might take a bit of a financial hit on it. If you're traveling with more than one person I bet most will say "F it" and just take a cab.

I think that $8 (or is it regular fare plus $8) isn't too bad to get from the airport to downtown. What does a taxi (and shuttle) cost these days? I'd guess that a taxi would be pushing $50. Even in smaller cities like Regina, I think I pay about $15-20 to get downtown from the airport.

Obviously there is a time and convenience tradeoff. When work is paying, I'll take the most direct option regardless of cost. In Calgary, that means Park and Jet, and in other cities, that usually means taxi/sedan. If I were a non-resident and travelling to Calgary for personal reasons and I was staying downtown, I'd consider saving a few bucks to get to downtown via BRT, especially if it is fairly quick. $8 is a bargain compared to many other places.

They key to this being successful is for it to be fairly frequent and well advertised to travellers, both in advance and in the terminal.

[Bunk]

If you have a monthly pass the $8 doesn't apply. It's also likely the $8 fare will be in the form of a day pass, so it can be used for additional trips that day as well.

[getbak]

You also pay a (I think) $3.50 premium for taxi trips from the airport, so putting a premium on bus trips leaving the airport isn't really a big deal.

Anyone who works at the airport who would be taking the bus should have a bus pass, so, they wouldn't be paying the premium anyway.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Just read the proposed rout adjustments for West Calgary. I don't agree with removing the 101, 104 and 301 from going into the Core; now we're almost forced to take the C-Train at Westbrook which is going to be jam packed. We essentially have to wait for the 70 to come by, that's going to be full by the time it reaches the Westbrook stop.

I thought the C-Train was to reduce the amount of bus transit, not practically completely eliminate it??

Originally Posted by fotze

That new map sucks balls. Can take three buses now and all are eliminated. Pretty sure I won't be able to get on the 301 still. Now I can take a 3 minute bus ride to the LRT then not be able to get on it because it will be packed. I know they can't please everyone, but fata me.

Ya, I might have to start driving Ozy.

This is projected to be a low ridership line. You shouldn't have much trouble getting on the train at any point along the line. Being connected to the northeast leg should mean that the capacity along the west leg should outstrip the ridership, since the northeast leg will likely require frequency and train lengths that will outpace the west leg's need for them. It should rarely be packed, especially during the first few years of service. Really, the west side is getting a pretty sweet deal in terms of the LRT service it will end up with.

The busiest stations should be 69th Street and Westbook, with Sirocco being moderately busy.

While I do think that buses feeding into LRT stations won't be as natural a solution as it is for the south line, I think most will come to find that it will work better than they expected. Feeder buses do mean transfers, but during the rush, and also most other times of the day, those transfers will be quick, and the travel time gained through the exclusive right of way of the LRT (compared to buses before) should be a wash or an improvement for most people. It does create some awkward changes for people south of the line though (people who currently take the 108 and 106 for example). Not sure if things will improve for them with the changes, but again, it may work better than expected just by looking at the map.

One thing I do lament though is the loss of bus service along Bow Trail between Sarcee Trail and 37th Street, and I brought it up at a couple open houses. This hasn't and probably won't change. Oh well.

[MrMastodonFarm]

So the 107 replaces the 112 essentially it seems?

What happens tot he 108? It seems silly to just remove that bus route totally.

The reasoning I see is those riders will now take the 6 to 45th street station... but that leaves a pretty big gap from 45th st and Richmond road following Richmond until 33rd ave where the 108 and 112 then follow the same route currently.

edit... after reading fotze's post now noticed the new 107 wouldn't even turn off 33rd ave and go down Crowchild. Thought I suppose the 301 would now do the Crowchild stops.

This is going to be a lot of tinkering well after the WestLRT opens I think.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The fare premium is similar to what other cities have (i.e. Vancouver).

Sure, but Vancouver got a train.

Also making the fare premium a bit odd is that if you take Route 100 and the LRT, you don't pay it.

[frinkprof]

I'm not sure if this will happen or not, but I think having the 301 stop a couple or three times along Crowchild Trail (say at 33rd, 26th, and 17th Avenues), and having a more frequent 106 and 107 would solve most problems created by cutting the 108. I'll have to see at the open houses.

[frinkprof]

Reminder about the North Central LRT open houses coming up this week:

Wednesday May 25, 2011(4pm – 8pm)
Location: Cardel Place
11950 Country Village Link NE (lobby area)



Thursday May 26, 2011 (4pm – 8pm)
Location: Winston Heights Community Association
520-27 Ave NE (main hall)



Saturday May 28, 2011 (10am – 2pm)
Location: Huntington Hills Community Association
520-78 Ave NW (main hall)

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/n...t_oh_2011.html

If you can't make it, you can e-mail your comments to CTCustomerFeedback@calgary.ca

I heard that they will be looking to create a group made up of members of nearby communities for further consultation meetings after this round of open houses. If you're interested in that, you may want to bring it up if you attend the open houses next week.

[Ducay]

Given the proximity to downtown, I can't see the LRT being faster for me going into work. Taking a bus to 69th St station and transfering to LRT is going to take longer than just taking that same 104 bus all the way down Bow Tr. Transferring and waiting for an extra bus just complicates things. I'll likely end up parking/riding.

Feeder buses are great in the South because the distance to the station is much shorter than the distance to downtown; not so much on the west.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by SebC

Hey frinkprof, do you know what they're building at 7th Ave and 9th St SW? Looks like a tunnel entrance or the start of an elevated LRT segment or something.

It's an electrical substation, which I think is replacing the one across the street which is near the old location of the 8th Street West Station. The new one might also house some signal control equipment for 7th Avenue. Not sure about that though.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Feeder buses are great in the South because the distance to the station is much shorter than the distance to downtown; not so much on the west.

This is the biggest reason it was foolish to build the west line now. They should have done South-East or North-Central first, would have been way more ridership.

I know a number of people who currently ride the 104/101 who are planning to drive downtown after their buses divert to the LRT line, which offsets some of the benefit of building the thing in the first place.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

This is the biggest reason it was foolish to build the west line now. They should have done South-East or North-Central first, would have been way more ridership.

I know a number of people who currently ride the 104/101 who are planning to drive downtown after their buses divert to the LRT line, which offsets some of the benefit of building the thing in the first place.

They didn't have nearly enough money available to build either the SE or NC line. The SE line would have been first, and if they had spent the WLRT money to get it started, it would have either: be finished downtown and get to blackfoot trail, or stop at the edge of downtown and get to Glenmore. Both are sort of useless.

NC line is much further behind in planning than the SE line, but would have a similar problem - it can't share ROW with an existing line downtown, and thus would need a new one. The WLRT could be built as an extension to the NE line.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

This is the biggest reason it was foolish to build the west line now. They should have done South-East or North-Central first, would have been way more ridership.

I know a number of people who currently ride the 104/101 who are planning to drive downtown after their buses divert to the LRT line, which offsets some of the benefit of building the thing in the first place.

They haven't finalized that yet. There is still public consultation on the issue of the bus diversions.

I'm pretty sure something will change between now and then, and there will be a dedicated bus akin to the 101/104 route, especially since there is major concern about the lack of routes after the LRT line goes live.

Either way, ridership on the West LRT is going to be high. Don't kid yourself.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

They haven't finalized that yet. There is still public consultation on the issue of the bus diversions.

I'm pretty sure something will change between now and then, and there will be a dedicated bus akin to the 101/104 route, especially since there is major concern about the lack of routes after the LRT line goes live.

I doubt that will change. There won't be any buses that directly parallel the LRT line, other than maybe something like the 81, a very infrequent community shuttle that gets beefed up to big buses whenever there is a service shutdown due to emergencies or track maintenance. The 101/104 should work as a feeder. They will make it frequent enough during the rush (certainly 15 minutes, maybe 10) to handle the demand, and quick transfers combined with the time travel gains attained through having the exclusive right of way of the LRT should translate into shorter travel times or negligible difference at worst.

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Either way, ridership on the West LRT is going to be high. Don't kid yourself.

Highish, but not really by Calgary standards. The south line is the busiest with about 10-20% higher ridership than the NE and NW lines which are about equal to each other. The west line's ridership is projected to be about a third less than the northwest and northeast lines, somewhere in the 60 000 riders per day range. Being coupled with the northeast line will mean that the west line should always have the capacity to handle its demand without the crush loads that the other lines, the south line especially, experience.