Salvation: Are You Ready?

[Scoreface]

This topic arises from the Sean Avery Backing Same Sex Marriage thread forum in Fire on Ice. Although it takes place on a much broader scope, it still encapsulates a lot of what was said there. With suggestion of another member, it seemed worthwhile to end the discussion there and therefore to really continue this discussion (not specifically related to homosexuality) here.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:16-18 NKJV.

If someone died in your place, what thought would you have? The penalty has been fully paid, all that is left is to believe, so that you may live. "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

Please discuss. Remember, it is an open forum and I truly encourage your input!

[Yasa]

Mmmmmnah

[Scoreface]

For those of you who think it's better suited in churches, thrown out altogether, hey, I'm not here to argue, get all upset and be easily offended. I hope you aren't either, but that's not the main thing. I'm just here to discuss. I have seen all kinds of God threads on here and thought it was time to open this thread. Yay or nay, any kinds of concerns, please feel free to discuss.

I've had my share of faults and claim in no way to be perfect myself, but I sincerely wish for a wholehearted discussion, which in my earnest hope I do not wish to condemn. Nor do I proclaim to have all the answers. If I don't, I will do my best or just say 'dunno' 'good question' 'hmmmm..' I just want your input and conversation please. Thank you!

[Reggie Dunlop]

Christianity is pretty much a pastiche of assorted then-contemporary god myths with assorted, random writings cobbled together in the third century.

Virtually all Christian holiday traditions are co-opted from pagan origins.

Society is far better served by moving forward in scientific and social realms.

[FanIn80]

[Scoreface]

Where do you get this from?

[Scoreface]

Haha. Funny. Made me laugh.

[Yasa]

I don't mind that there are churches or religions. I just don't like when the people that should shut up, don't shut up. Like WBC. But I guess that can be said for lots of things.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Scoreface

Where do you get this from?

Reggie Dunlop is a bit off but I guess his general point is clear from academia and history. The evolution and convolutions of Christianity are well researched and documented, especially around the establishment of the Biblical canon and establishment of traditions. It's your choice to choose whether or not that affects your understanding of your faith or it's validity.

[Kidder]

Scoreface, you revealed in the Avery thread how a tragic incident in your life led you to your faith and understanding of Salvation. I think it's terrific that you were able to find peace and contentment out of what undoubtedly was a difficult time in life and wish to share this source of comfort and enlightenment with others.

Where you lose me, and I believe many others on this forum, is where you enter under the pretense of a discussion or conversation, when in reality you arrive with a sermon, albeit very open to feedback and comments by anyone requiring further clarity.

Your beliefs are rooted entirely in your interpretation of the Scriptures you have adopted as truth. And while it is no crime to be confident in your position, you dissuade your audience by refusing to examine their position fully or fairly. And why would you? Your word is God's word, of which you have no doubt or desire to debate, for His is the truth of which you are certain.

To put it in a sporting metaphor (as this is a sports message board) you always have the home court. Others are invited to participate, but on your turf, with your refs and your rules.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I grew up in a religious family, and graduated from a Christian University. I have friends and family that cover a wide spectrum; conservative, liberal, Christian, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, etc. And I'm a homosexual.

So naturally it pained me a little to see you enter the Avery thread trumpeting your opinion as the Word of God. Again, there's nothing wrong with being confident in your interpretation and arguing your position. But don't delude yourself into thinking you're engaging anyone. You stick to home court. Your "discussions" are presented as fact and include homework for your readers (Read Romans 5, discover the story of Sodom). You have assumed conclusions based entirely on your canon, with apparently no influence from differing opinions. And the most egregious to me personally was in post # 175 where you said this in reference to same-sex couples:

Originally Posted by Scoreface

The parents think (blinded by the god of this world) that they were born this way, when in fact it was a choice.

I have no idea where you found the moral authority to stake this claim. Yes I realize you quoted Romans that shed light on human's inherent sinful nature. And more links to Scripture that labels homosexuality a sin. And then more Scripture that shows God has granted us free will. And from that you have concluded that homosexuality is a choice. Not even a distinction between the act and the orientation. Gays are gay by choice. For so it is Written. No regard for testimony from biologists, psychiatrists, or actual homosexuals. Of course not, because they're not Scripture, of which you've been bestowed the divine interpretation. Home court.

But you show yourself a caring person, lamenting the dismissal of Sportsnet's Damian Goddard for exercising free speech as you state in post #164:

Originally Posted by Scoreface

It's just an atrocity when a person speaks against such an issue they are being persecuted but when someone speaks the other way, it is all fine and ok

I would reserve a word like "atrocity" for persecution such as the current anti-homosexuality bill of Uganda (a primarily Christian country) that seeks the execution of all discovered homosexuals, the "save our children" campaign of the '70s (spearheaded by Christian advocates) that sought to appeal an ordinance that prohibited sexual orientation discrimination and further deny homosexuals their human rights, or the mass murders of the pink triangle in Nazi-Germany.

These people use Scripture just like you to support their claims. As did those who persecuted people of different color or gender. Interpretations differ and evolve. You wonder why you have faced so much backlash for some of your propositions:

Originally Posted by Scoreface

Why am I scorned when I share my views but anyone else is free to share theirs? They're not only my views, but God's, since they're backed by Scripture. What do you have to back yours?

Everyone speaks for themselves. Everyone gets to share their opinion. But you claim to speak for a Higher Power... the Ultimate Power. And you ask people to engage you in discussion. How exactly would they do that?

You found Salvation, and you want others to join you in this experience. That's fantastic.

I would suggest your method of enlightenment is counter-productive. Because although you seek to share the word of God, your pompousness serves as an indignity to those who may be receptive of the message you wish to convey.

I know personally I've always been most inspired by those who let their faith do the talking, not those who talk for their faith.

[JohnnyB]

^^ Great post!! ^^

[WhiteTiger]

Have you ever gone to a store where the salespeople are paid ONLY by commission? High pressure sales, it's called, I believe.

It's really annoying. You have a salesperson hovering around you, bugging you at all times, just 'checking in' and 'making sure' you are still ok when all you really want is for them to go away so you can think for yourself about the product.

If, by chance, you do succeed in getting rid of one, another is right on top of you with no time to breathe.

Those who heavily espouse religion tend to be looked at in the same vein. Perhaps try looking at it like that.

You believe in your product. You want us to try your product...and we aren't interested in having it shoved down our throats. Work on your approach and sales pitch, and maybe your 'commission' will go up.

[Save Us Sutter]

I would rather live the life I have now on my own terms, than bow to some thousand year old book in anticipation of another life that may never come.

Your certainty was created by your brain, not God.

[puckluck]

God damnit, I thought this thread was about the blow out sale at the Salvation Army!

[Flash Walken]

Experiment:

Get a group of adults together and form a circle. Pick a bible verse and have one adult say it to the next adult directly on their left in a game of telephone.

Now, make the last adult translate what he heard into another language and have him say it back to the first adult who must then translate it again back into the original language.

Multiply that by 2000 years, that's the kind of authenticity and accuracy you can expect from the bible.

[billybob123]

Originally Posted by puckluck

God damnit, I thought this thread was about the blow out sale at the Salvation Army!

I saw an article in the Sun on Friday about how the Sally Ann and other charities are losing $500,000 per year because people are giving them junk instead of just throwing it away. Astounding. Do people honestly think that the SA or the Seed or Goodwill will be able to get anything for the broken fan blade or the rolls of yarn (I think that's what's in the photo) they gave them? Seriously. If YOU won't buy it, don't give it to them, because no one else will.

[FlamesAddiction]

Scoreface, you seem pretty open about religion so I hope you don't mind me asking, but what denomination of Christian are you?

I personally think people have right to worship however they like but I don't get the desire to promote it. What is the belief behind doing so? Does god favour people who do it, or do you find it personally rewarding?

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by billybob123

I saw an article in the Sun on Friday about how the Sally Ann and other charities are losing $500,000 per year because people are giving them junk instead of just throwing it away. Astounding. Do people honestly think that the SA or the Seed or Goodwill will be able to get anything for the broken fan blade or the rolls of yarn (I think that's what's in the photo) they gave them? Seriously. If YOU won't buy it, don't give it to them, because no one else will.

Meh, that happens in every city. Just the Calgary Sun running out of stories to cover. People dumping illegally is nothing new, and especially people dumping in charity drop off zones. What better place to drop some garbage off and not look overly suspicious.

[J pold]

Originally Posted by Scoreface

If someone died in your place, what thought would you have? The penalty has been fully paid, all that is left is to believe, so that you may live. "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
!

I think it would be a disgusting immoral offer. Is it ethical to believe that your sins can be forgiven by the punishment and torture of another person? Vicarious redemption by human sacrifice is immoral. As an example, let's say I loved and deeply cared for you, and you committed a murder; but I love you so much that I am willing to take your punishment, I will spend the rest of my days in prison for you. But what I can never do is take away your responsibilities, I can never forgive you for what you've done, I can't say that you didn't do it, I can't wash you clean of your crime. This Christian doctrine abolishes the idea of personal responsibility, on which all morals and ethics must lye.

Yes it would be nice to toss your sins, and responsibilities, on the back of an eccentric preacher who died 2000 years ago, but you can't and to believe that you can is immoral.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Today's not really a good day for me. Could this wait until a more convenient time?