Airport Tunnel Rejected Again? **UPDATE** It's built!

[billybob123]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

McCall Way cannot be made into an airport terminal access because there isn't any room for a public road between the runway and the terminal expansion that is also going ahead.

And again, there will also be a public tunnel on McCall way, to go under a new taxiway. This is being paid for by the airport.

Thanks for the update. I had a feeling that there was a space issue for a Barlow/McCall tunnel to the terminal.

Does anyone know when the 11 St extension around the runway is going to be done? I'd kill to get that done ASAP. Last I saw it had been graded, but they closed down any access to the gravel road so I don't know what the progress is. According to the city it was supposed to be completed in 2010. Opening that single road will make my life so much easier when driving to the airport at rush hour... it removes the need for me to touch Deerfoot when accessing the airport.

I did read the entire thread during the debate and people had managed to convince me that far S and close SE commuters might be able to use the tunnel. I didn't know that CHB was limited in the widening it could have -- I was using Barlow's old alignment as the argument since it wasn't as wide, but had forgotten that the ring road might help people trying to access the far NW and airport.

ETA: incidentally I also took the new "route 100" bus to the airport recently. It didn't really take that much longer from Westwinds than the 57 did from Whitehorn. It just seemed like it because it goes so far out on CHB. I saw in the newspaper that CT is planning an express route to downtown, which would probably kill the shuttle that runs now (err Allied?). I think it's a great idea - who in their right mind would take public transit now to the airport unless you work there, given that it takes a good 45 minutes from downtown, let alone anywhere else in the city? Will the new express bus have luggage capabilities (like the rental car shuttles at some airports?). This was discussed earlier in the thread as well, but not in the context of the proposed new express to downtown.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

They aren't demanding they be built immediately, but when traffic levels make them a requirement. Wouldn't the city do this anyways if intersections were overloaded with traffic?

Feels like the Airport Authority just wants to have something in writing that the city won't back down from keeping it flowing properly in the future; a build it and forget it attitude. Otherwise it starts to look bad on the airports image if that happens (and eventually the authority).

On the other hand, interchanges at 19th and 36th will greatly benefit the airports planned business park areas or commercial aviation companies.

All said and done though, at what traffic level are they demanding these changes to occur?

That would be correct from the AA side if the traffic numbers justify it on a normal basis. The problem is the AA says it doesnt need the Tunnel, so why know are they worried about overpasses on a road that they say they dont need at all?

Example (all numbers made up) if Calgary has a policy to build overpass on intersection with more than 10K hourly vehicles and the AA says you need to build it at 5K or less than is that prudent planning or a purposeful poison pill.

I have said it before, if the AA doesnt agree to the Tunnel the City should place Toll roads on Airport Trail and Barlow from CH.

If the Overpasses remain as a sticking point I dont see council passing it. A funding liability increase or so much I assume would require another council vote. The last one only passed by 1, I dont see this one passing again.

[You Need a Thneed]

I really don't understand why the Airport has the requirement that the interchanges must be built at a certain point. At the point at which they are needed, the city would be looking at building them anyway. I totally understand that the city doesn't want to be forced to build them at a certain time, but in all lieklihood, they would be building them at around that time anyway.

My vote would be to deal with the issues in 10-15 years when traffic counts make the interchanges necessary, not now.

It's good to hear that the Airport has backed down from demanding compensation for the land.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I have said it before, if the AA doesnt agree to the Tunnel the City should place Toll roads on Airport Trail and Barlow from CH.

Can you imagine how many Calgarians this would piss off if city hall actually did this. It's a completely different scenario than that with the SW ring road. Trying to play hard ball like that with the airport is just going to screw us Calgarians over. I'd imagine the council will get turfed pretty quickly if they put tolls on roads going to the airport.

[You Need a Thneed]

The interchanges benefit both the city and the airport. Why can't both parties just agree to work together to get them built in 10-15 years when they would be required?

Don't put it all on the city, or, at the very least, give the city a little bit of help and some leeway. Say, when traffic reaches a certain level, the city has 5 years to build the interchanges, and the Airport will pay for 30% of the cost, or something like that.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Can you imagine how many Calgarians this would piss off if city hall actually did this. It's a completely different scenario than that with the SW ring road. Trying to play hard ball like that with the airport is just going to screw us Calgarians over. I'd imagine the council will get turfed pretty quickly if they put tolls on roads going to the airport.

If that $15 fee per license plate lookup wasnt just put in effect I would say it would be like any other toll road, any vehicle registered within the City of Calgary doesnt get charged.

That new $15 fee really throws a wrench into my future Calgary Toll Road plans. Hard to believe its legal for the province to do that - I guess they have never heard of this thing called a database.

[The Yen Man]

Maybe the AA is leary about city council's crappy track record and how they're so reactive rather than proactive. Just look at how they handled the Barlow Trail closure. They acted like it came as a surprise to them when the AA announced it was coming up. Now the city has to scramble to plan this airport tunnel when it should have been planned out 10 years ago. Perhaps they just want it in formal writing that the city will build these exchanges when the time comes rather than have it voted down on a whim by dumb council members when the time comes.

[Old Yeller]

Just a little tidbit I heard on QR77 this morning. Currently the AA is not answering emails or calls from the city to go back to the bargaining table even though there's a Friday deadline.... a couple of Alderman were talking about it.

These negotiations seem quite chaotic.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

Just a little tidbit I heard on QR77 this morning. Currently the AA is not answering emails or calls from the city to go back to the bargaining table even though there's a Friday deadline.... a couple of Alderman were talking about it.

These negotiations seem quite chaotic.

If it's John Mar calling them or emailing them, I don't blame them.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Maybe the AA is leary about city council's crappy track record and how they're so reactive rather than proactive. Just look at how they handled the Barlow Trail closure. They acted like it came as a surprise to them when the AA announced it was coming up. Now the city has to scramble to plan this airport tunnel when it should have been planned out 10 years ago. Perhaps they just want it in formal writing that the city will build these exchanges when the time comes rather than have it voted down on a whim by dumb council members when the time comes.

That makes 100% sense except the Airport says it doesnt need the Tunnel in the first place.

Why do they care about traffic congestion for a road they dont need in the first place?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

That makes 100% sense except the Airport says it doesnt need the Tunnel in the first place.

Why do they care about traffic congestion for a road they dont need in the first place?

The interchanges are on the part of Airport Trail that's already there. Obviously, there will be a lot more traffic on that section if the tunnel does go ahead, as it will become a main traffic corridor, instead of just a local access to the airport.

I think it's going to take a while before Airport Trail can't handle the traffic without interchanges. It's a wide right of way, and they could put three lanes each way through there.

[GGG]

What really bothers me is that the Airport Authority isn't accountable to anyone. In the end they are accountable to the feds but obviously they won't step in.

So we have a Monopolistic corporation with no accountability and that can unilaterly set fees and be obstructionist. The Airport Authority should be serving the needs of the city. An the elected representitives of the City want to pay for a tunnel therefore the AA should allow them to build that tunnel.

What also bugs me is the airport improvement fees that are again unilaterally set with little oversight and accountability

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by GGG

What really bothers me is that the Airport Authority isn't accountable to anyone. In the end they are accountable to the feds but obviously they won't step in.

So we have a Monopolistic corporation with no accountability and that can unilaterly set fees and be obstructionist. The Airport Authority should be serving the needs of the city. An the elected representitives of the City want to pay for a tunnel therefore the AA should allow them to build that tunnel.

What also bugs me is the airport improvement fees that are again unilaterally set with little oversight and accountability

The Airport Authority is doing their part to serve the needs of the City. They've pushed hard for their expansions to happen and are spending their own money to do so. The Authority's job is to serve flights in and out of Calgary, not expand the road network that connects it.

If Airport Trail has the capacity to get people to the Airport (it does), then it is NOT in their best interest to allow a potentially poorly planned tunnel to get rushed in during one of the biggest construction projects they will ever undertake. The Airport Authority is making sure they don't get burned by the City making mistakes on their turf.

If the tunnel could be built with the guarantees that there will be no delays and will not cause significant setbacks to the Airport's schedules, then I'm sure this would have been over a long time ago. Perhaps the City is still playing hardball on some terms of the agreement when they don't have the leeway to do so?

If the terms in question are about the milestones for interchanges to be built, I have a feeling there are certain alderman against the tunnel in the first place who are balking at guaranteeing construction dollars to the area.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

The Airport Authority is doing their part to serve the needs of the City. They've pushed hard for their expansions to happen and are spending their own money to do so. The Authority's job is to serve flights in and out of Calgary, not expand the road network that connects it.

They aren't spending their money to do so. They are spending money they charge the public that they can set at whatever rate they want with no accountability.

Also the airport authority should have absolutely no jusrsticton on roads outside of the airport property. They are grossly over stepping there athority by essentially blackmailng the city into building overpasses that they want. This should be decided by city planners and engineers not the airport authority.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by GGG

They aren't spending their money to do so. They are spending money they charge the public that they can set at whatever rate they want with no accountability.

Also the airport authority should have absolutely no jusrsticton on roads outside of the airport property. They are grossly over stepping there athority by essentially blackmailng the city into building overpasses that they want. This should be decided by city planners and engineers not the airport authority.

Mikey, is that you?

Clearly the NPO is using its "monopoly" to "gouge" travelers in its ever growing conquest to take over the NE

[You Need a Thneed]

Special city council meeting today, just to discuss the tunnel. Almost certainly is the make or break day for the tunnel. It sounds like the Airport authority isn't backing down on the interchanges, which adds to the total cost. The total amount extra is unknown, it will likely come out this afternoon at the meeting.

It's suggested they will be looking at three options:
1. To proceed, while continuing to request the province/feds for money help (which could turn into option 2)
2. The city proceeds, funding the whole thing
3. Build the shell of the tunnel, but don't make the connections right away.

That #3 is an option suggests to me that the extra cost they will be discussing today falls somewhere between $30 million and $50 million.

Also, of note, the original $295M included $24 million in road construction on Airport Trail, not related to the tunnel, but to simply make Airport Trail one continuous road from Stoney Trail all the way to Harvest Hills Blvd. That could be cut for now, then built a few years down the road. The roadway through the tunnel itself is more important, at least the tunnel could be used (and it would be).

Also, the original 30% contingency in the construction cost could help cover the difference, but we won't know that until the project would be done. My educated guess is that $10-$20 million of the contingency might not need to be used.

If I had to guess the result of this afternoon's meeting, I'm going to guess that it get's approved, with the portion of Airport Trail between 36th Street and 60th Street dropped for now, and city council borrowing a little bit of extra money to complete the work. It'll pass 8-7 again, like the original tunnel vote.

[Madman]

No funding from the Province.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/sp...422/story.html

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Madman

No funding from the Province.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/sp...422/story.html

Whether you support the tunnel or not, Calgarians should be extremely angry if Edmonton gets provincial dollars for an arena (subsidizing a billionaire), and Calgary gets nothing for the airport tunnel (important infrastructure).

[mykalberta]

You cant compare the two as on is clearly infrastructure and one is not, Calgary blew its infrastructure load on the West LRT.

I really hope the province says no to the Oilers and eventually the Flames about provincial tax dollars for an arena.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I really hope the province says no to the Oilers and eventually the Flames about provincial tax dollars for an arena.

Me too. I don't mind the government giving the teams a loan, but giving money to millionaires and billionaires for them to profit should be a no go.