There's no way that a pure PR system would work, but I would like to see it incorporated to some degree. I think it might even encourage some people to take their vote more seriously.
That's pure BS. The commentary in 1997 was that this country was in dire, desperate need of proportional representation. Can you find me some Canadian leftist commentary AGAINST PR from 1997 or later? I can tell you that personally, I have been supporting PR from well before '97 and think that it stinks that ANYONE have a majority with 38% of the popular vote.
I'm cool with the 'Alternative Vote' but not PR. PR allows for too much instability, when at best the benefit to PR is to allow bats**t crazy minority parties a taxpayer sponsored platform to spew their idiocy, at worst you could have one-issue parties claiming the balance of power on key votes on issues that were outside of their platform.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
I do agree with PR, but I disagree that it's so bad now. Obviously with 5 parties you aren't going to get 50%+ of the electorate agreeing. It's not surprising or awful. It is what it is. Win your seats.
The worst it ever was for seats vs vote was the BQ. And they are gone now!
Yup yup. Its why the argument that was made in 08 in support of the coup by the Dion/Layton/Duceppe triumverate made no sense.
" 62% of this country voted against the Conservatives" they screamed.
yeah well in that case 74% voted against the Liberals, 82% voted against the NDP, and 90% voted against the Bloc! Yet, thats what the country wanted?
In a multi-party system getting over 50% of the vote is going to be extremely difficult at best. 40% is a very high number.
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I'm cool with the 'Alternative Vote' but not PR. PR allows for too much instability, when at best the benefit to PR is to allow bats**t crazy minority parties a taxpayer sponsored platform to spew their idiocy, at worst you could have one-issue parties claiming the balance of power on key votes on issues that were outside of their platform.
Agreed. The last thing we need in the country is a government paralyzed by special interest minority groups and perpetual minority governments. Nothing would get done and I suspect partisan politics would play an even bigger role than now.
Yup yup. Its why the argument that was made in 08 in support of the coup by the Dion/Layton/Duceppe triumverate made no sense.
" 62% of this country voted against the Conservatives" they screamed.
yeah well in that case 74% voted against the Liberals, 82% voted against the NDP, and 90% voted against the Bloc! Yet, thats what the country wanted?
In a multi-party system getting over 50% of the vote is going to be extremely difficult at best. 40% is a very high number.
Exactly. People complain against it when they lose, not realizing it's the same way they won before.
It is how it's always been, and so the posters and voters complaint, if for a specific party, has therefore never been valid.
If he is however arguing for PR without party bias though, then I agree. As I already said. I do think that is a better system. But maybe only for a small country without regional divisions...
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I'll wade quickly into the PR debate.
As it stands now PR would be nothing but a recipe for an ineffective parliment and elections every 18 months. If however elections were on a set schedule it may work better as parliment could focus on getting things done instead of bringing down the current government.
That being said, I'm still not on the PR bandwagon, as even in that system people won't necessarily be represented by people they voted for, but hey, that's how democracy works. If you're complaining that being governed by someone you didn't vote for isn't democratic, you've got a pretty strange view of democracy.
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Agreed. The last thing we need in the country is a government paralyzed by special interest minority groups and perpetual minority governments. Nothing would get done and I suspect partisan politics would play an even bigger role than now.
Not true at all. Multiple countries in Europe are represented consistently by minority and coalition, and it's generally led to higher levels of cooperation between the parties.
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Originally Posted by rubecube
Not true at all. Multiple countries in Europe are represented consistently by minority and coalition, and it's generally led to higher levels of cooperation between the parties.
But how many have regularly scheduled elections, and how many can call one whenever they don't agree with whoever has the most seats?
I'm serious with this question. I don't think PR would work very well without regularly scheduled elections, but I've never looked into the countries who have it, and how they run their elections.
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Not true at all. Multiple countries in Europe are represented consistently by minority and coalition, and it's generally led to higher levels of cooperation between the parties.
The geographic size of Canada is something that I think would make this impractical. You would end up having multiple parties that only represent the interests of specific regions, which would threaten the solidarity of the country. You can't really compare Canada with small, consolidated countries.
The geographic size of Canada is something that I think would make this impractical. You would end up having multiple parties that only represent the interests of specific regions, which would threaten the solidarity of the country. You can't really compare Canada with small, consolidated countries.
Are you really saying there are no regional differences/disputes in smaller countries like Germany, Spain, France, etc.?
Are you really saying there are no regional differences/disputes in smaller countries like Germany, Spain, France, etc.?
I would argue not to the extent that we would have in Canada. I just don't think you can look at another country from a 1,000 miles away, claim that it works for them and then suggest that it should work out just fine for us.
I would argue not to the extent that we would have in Canada.
Well I think that shows a poor understanding of the various cultures in those countries. While they exist on a smaller scale, the differences between rural and urban France are just as complex as the differences between Eastern and Western Canada. Spain's Basque region includes a separatist movement, and Rhineland Germany is different from say Bavaria even though the two are located pretty close together.
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I just don't think you can look at another country from a 1,000 miles away, claim that it works for them and then suggest that it should work out just fine for us.
Except we do that all the time. I agree there'd be some growing pains when it comes to implementing PR, but that doesn't mean it won't work.
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Well I think that shows a poor understanding of the various cultures in those countries. While they exist on a smaller scale, the differences between rural and urban France are just as complex as the differences between Eastern and Western Canada. Spain's Basque region includes a separatist movement, and Rhineland Germany is different from say Bavaria even though the two are located pretty close together.
I think you are grossly underestimating the regional differences and problems in governing the second largest landmass on the entire planet.
On a geographical scale, there is absolutely no comparison between Spain or Germany. Allocation of natural resources and labour would be the two most major factors. The Economy is king, and the economy is regionalized much much more in Canada.
Well I think that shows a poor understanding of the various cultures in those countries. While they exist on a smaller scale, the differences between rural and urban France are just as complex as the differences between Eastern and Western Canada. Spain's Basque region includes a separatist movement, and Rhineland Germany is different from say Bavaria even though the two are located pretty close together.
With all due respect, I don't think you are looking at the situation all that clearly. Germany may have it's cultural differences from region to region, but to suggest that it is on par with Canada's diversity geographically, economically, and historically is just absurd. Canada needs parties that are nationally unified. Not fringe parties that focus on a narrow set of interests.
I think you are grossly underestimating the regional differences and problems in governing the second largest landmass on the entire planet.
On a geographical scale, there is absolutely no comparison between Spain or Germany. Allocation of natural resources and labour would be the two most major factors. The Economy is king, and the economy is regionalized much much more in Canada.
No, I'm not. I even said it was on a smaller scale so the priorities tend to be different. If you don't think cultural beliefs are just as significant on the electoral landscape as economic beliefs, then you haven't been paying very much attention to our neighbours to the South.
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Originally Posted by Ark2
With all due respect, I don't think you are looking at the situation all that clearly. Germany may have it's cultural differences from region to region, but to suggest that it is on par with Canada's diversity geographically, economically, and historically is just absurd. Canada needs parties that are nationally unified. Not fringe parties that focus on a narrow set of interests.
Geographically and economically, no. However any European country's historical diversity completely dwarfs Canada's. Canada did have a fringe party in parliament for 20 years, so I wouldn't say FPTP prevents that.
No, I'm not. I even said it was on a smaller scale so the priorities tend to be different. If you don't think cultural beliefs are just as significant on the electoral landscape as economic beliefs, then you haven't been paying very much attention to our neighbours to the South.
Don't our neighbors to the south use a two party system precisely because of those concerns?
Proportional representation would be an unmitigated disaster in Canada with such distinct regional interests and without a balanced system of some kind.
It already is a regional battle with the current two and a half (plus one) party setup.
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Don't our neighbors to the south use a two party system precisely because of those concerns?
Proportional representation would be an unmitigated disaster in Canada with such distinct regional interests and without a balanced system of some kind.
It already is a regional battle with the current two and a half (plus one) party setup.
I still don't see how this would be the case. If you ran just a basic PR the Conservatives would still be in power with a minority government, which actually reflects the will of the population. Any party with less than 1% of the vote shouldn't get a seat. If you're against PR, then why not use something like STV?
That NDP MP finally made an appearance I see, and she's hotter than I thought she would be based on that one small headshot we saw. So...she can stay on as an MP.
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That's pure BS. The commentary in 1997 was that this country was in dire, desperate need of proportional representation. Can you find me some Canadian leftist commentary AGAINST PR from 1997 or later? I can tell you that personally, I have been supporting PR from well before '97 and think that it stinks that ANYONE have a majority with 38% of the popular vote.
While I am quite certain right-leaning media was making that argument in 1997, I doubt very much the left was.
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