Did N. Korea set off a nuke?

[Cowboy]

I have to say this after reading this thread...

My political views are certainly left of centre, but Lanny, even I have to agree with Transplant and I think your Leftist views are clouding your sense of reality. I think it would be great if we could treat every country like a coach teaches a tyke playing hockey. Show them the right way, hopefully they follow our lead. If they do something wrong we could nurture them and tell them everything is o.k.....

The fact is there is some messed up dictators. I believe as citizen of this world that I have a duty let alone a right to tell someone how they are treating there people is unfair and unjust and I think it should stop. I will stick up for the kid that is getting bullied. Saddam bullied his people. If the next bomb dropped in Iraq misses by few miles and hits N. Korea I will be more than satisfied if the U.S. government rights it off as collateral damage.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Tranny, you're right, I'm tired of going in circles with you too. You can defend America on anything they want to do. You're sounding like a brainwashed mindless drone who refuses to acknowledge that America has its own warts and should maybe stop sticking their noses in other countries affairs. I know you're not that way and consider you a pretty smart guy. I was 100% behind America going into Afghanistan, as this is where the leaders of the group that attacked were residing. I am still 100% behind the country in going after these guys no matter where they are. IMO the US should have special forces working in cooperation with Pakistan to root out al Qaeda and finish them off. The US should be working with the other countries of the world to press for terrorists to be turned over. They should be working with the UN to go into Iran, where other al Qaeda supposedly ran. That would be the logical solution to what happened. Going into Iraq and occupying a country was a stupid move and has exacerbated the situation in the region. That was a stupid move and was motivated by something other than the pursuit of al Qaeda. If that isn't obvious to you by now, then you'll never be able to comprehend anything from any other angle than that which the government tells you. This circle is done. Lets just agree to disagree and hope that your buddies in office don't get us into a major war with someone that can defend themselves, having countries pick sides, with the US on the wrong end.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowboy@Sep 12 2004, 07:51 PM
I have to say this after reading this thread...

My political views are certainly left of centre, but Lanny, even I have to agree with Transplant and I think your Leftist views are clouding your sense of reality. I think it would be great if we could treat every country like a coach teaches a tyke playing hockey. Show them the right way, hopefully they follow our lead. If they do something wrong we could nurture them and tell them everything is o.k.....

The fact is there is some messed up dictators. I believe as citizen of this world that I have a duty let alone a right to tell someone how they are treating there people is unfair and unjust and I think it should stop. I will stick up for the kid that is getting bullied. Saddam bullied his people. If the next bomb dropped in Iraq misses by few miles and hits N. Korea I will be more than satisfied if the U.S. government rights it off as collateral damage.

Cowboy, your arrogance is showing. America is not perfect, and should not be assuming the job of coaching other players in how to play the game. No one country has that right. No one has perfected a strategy for government yet, so it doesn't mean any one country should be, nor assume the responsibility of, coaching others in this aspect of our civilization.

Also, I don't think that by speaking out against one country bullying its way around the globe makes anyone a leftist. Well maybe when you're talking about the facist characteristics you're talking about. But I don't think its wrong to respect the culture, traditions and ways of another country and learning to work with them. Jesus people, this part of the world has always been this way. How is it correct for us to say that they're wrong when we have so many problems to deal with ourselves? Someone please explain this base argument to me. What makes our way more right than theirs?

[Cowboy]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Sep 12 2004, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Sep 12 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowboy@Sep 12 2004, 07:51 PM
I have to say this after reading this thread...

My political views are certainly left of centre, but Lanny, even I have to agree with Transplant and I think your Leftist views are clouding your sense of reality. I think it would be great if we could treat every country like a coach teaches a tyke playing hockey. Show them the right way, hopefully they follow our lead. If they do something wrong we could nurture them and tell them everything is o.k.....

The fact is there is some messed up dictators. I believe as citizen of this world that I have a duty let alone a right to tell someone how they are treating there people is unfair and unjust and I think it should stop. I will stick up for the kid that is getting bullied. Saddam bullied his people. If the next bomb dropped in Iraq misses by few miles and hits N. Korea I will be more than satisfied if the U.S. government rights it off as collateral damage.

Cowboy, your arrogance is showing. America is not perfect, and should not be assuming the job of coaching other players in how to play the game. No one country has that right. No one has perfected a strategy for government yet, so it doesn't mean any one country should be, nor assume the responsibility of, coaching others in this aspect of our civilization.

Also, I don't think that by speaking out against one country bullying its way around the globe makes anyone a leftist. Well maybe when you're talking about the facist characteristics you're talking about. But I don't think its wrong to respect the culture, traditions and ways of another country and learning to work with them. Jesus people, this part of the world has always been this way. How is it correct for us to say that they're wrong when we have so many problems to deal with ourselves? Someone please explain this base argument to me. What makes our way more right than theirs? [/b][/quote]
Lanny, if the United States never outlawed slavery, would it be o.k. for Canada to sit back and say, hey the U.S. has always been like this it is their culture? I don't see it. I don't think the first reaction for any one country should be military action. Military action should not be unilateral. I was not saying that the U.S. should coach them infact I was saying the opposite. We can't coach them. I just can't sit back and watch a dictator kill his people and right it off as "this part of the world has always been this way." There are human beings out there being treated like animals because one ***hole took power, usually forcefully. I want other people to have what I have, freedoms. I am not saying that we should move in and give every country that, but I am saying it would be nice to rid them of a government who refuses to let his people see the benefits of the western world. Education is the right way to go, but the governments in question don't exactly provide them with enough education for them to realize that is what they need

[transplant99]

And wasn't you that accused me of fear mongering? And then you come up with "but, i would rather the fight happens over there than over here."

how is that fear-mongering??

I WOULD rather the war be waged elsewhere than in my backyard.....geezuz whats so hard to comprehend about that. Im sure the Iraqis feel exactly the opposite and wish all this was happening here instead. Its human nature.

Fear mongering? Huh?

There are more ways to fight something than roll the military into action. You can do so with special forces and better use of intelligence. You do so through education.

Special forces and intelligence didnt do much for the people in Spain on that train. Or the kids in that Russian school, or the sailors on the USS Cole, or the civilians in Nairobi whose deaths totalled over 200 with 4000 injured.

Sometimes you have to fight back, and fight the fight on your oppenents level.

Rolling a tank into the streets doesn't do a damn thing but p*ss people off and create more disenchantment and push more people toward the terrorist camp.

Really? I agree it p*sses people off, but i disagree it doesnt do anything else. If the uS doesnt use ground forces in Iraq, Hussein is still in power...you know that terrorist?

Didn't we learn anything from the Soviet's failure in Afghanistan?

not sure what you mean by this.

The people must still have a say in the way things are done with in their own country, other wise they don't own the solution and will let it go.

And the Iraqis will. For the first time in their HISTORY, they will be allowed to CHOOSE their leaders instead of having them kill and maim their way to the top.

And if our Homeland Secuirty department does its job and properly screens people coming into the country, how do they take the battle to us here?

Lanny....are you that naive to believe that operatives of different terrorist orginizations cant still penetrate the borders of the USA? I suppose this could happen, but then you would have people screaming from the rooftops about their loss of personal freedoms.

AL Queda will hit the US again...thats a given and an assessment that everyone in government and intellgence agrees with. WHere? When? Who knows, but regardless of whats going on elsewhere this would occur.

And a very close minded statement in saying "I guess since "they are used to it" it wont bother them anyhow". No one anywhere enjoys indescriminent violence around them. And you accuse me of going off the deep end? Sheesh.

YOUR THE ONE who suggested this fer chrissakes...im just echoing your words...not that i believe it one bit.

remember this?

What you REFUSE to acknowledge, let alone accept, is the fact that the people in these countries know no other way of life and they have survived with in the confines of that system.

How do you think those "systems" were acheived? Through violence, intimidation and killing...thats how.

Sheesh is right.

You can defend America on anything they want to do.

Well thanks for that...since its my right to do so...i will if i choose. nice to have your blessing.

You're sounding like a brainwashed mindless drone who refuses to acknowledge that America has its own warts and should maybe stop sticking their noses in other countries affairs.


Ahh more name calling...and all because i disagree with your "opinions". Got it. Here i thought it was my right to do so, as it is yours to question the governments. Nice doublestandard though.

I am still 100% behind the country in going after these guys no matter where they are. IMO the US should have special forces working in cooperation with Pakistan to root out al Qaeda and finish them off

Well then....why would you be opposed to them gooing into Iraq...Hussein was a teerorist...right?

As for Al-Queda....then we are in for a LOT of invasions..something you oppose. At last count, the intelligence community had Al_Queda cells in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Somalia, Yemen, Kosovo, Philippines, Algeria, Sudan, Tanzania....never mind every middle east country except maybe Israel and Jordan.

These guys are everywhere...sometimes in small numbers, bigger groups in other places.

They should be working with the UN to go into Iran, where other al Qaeda supposedly ran. That would be the logical solution to what happened. Going into Iraq and occupying a country was a stupid move and has exacerbated the situation in the region. That was a stupid move and was motivated by something other than the pursuit of al Qaeda. If that isn't obvious to you by now, then you'll never be able to comprehend anything from any other angle than that which the government tells you.

I wont touch the UN argument anymore.....cause im brainwashed.

Of course going into Iraq wasnt motivated by Al-Queda....thats been discussed to death here. Who said it was?

So if its not obvious to me that your views are right and i am wrong, then i am a victim of government brain washing?

Wow.

Hows that lofty perch anyhow?


Lets just agree to disagree and hope that your buddies in office don't get us into a major war with someone that can defend themselves, having countries pick sides, with the US on the wrong end.

My buddies in office? Read up there ^^^...i plainly said that i want Bush out of office....or are you skirting that as well? And what about the declaration of war by Bin Laden? you never answered that either.

Major war? Like where? Iran? Or one of the other countries harboring terrorism? Syria is the next liekly target....but again the US will get hammered for that as well.

[transplant99]

How is it correct for us to say that they're wrong when we have so many problems to deal with ourselves?

"They're" wrong because they have decalred anyone who is non-Muslim MUST DIE.

Thats just wrong, and i sure dont recall anyone in the US or ANY other nation in the world saying anything like that.

Our problems (of which there are many) are exactly that...ours.

We dont use the annihalation of an entire race/religion/area to hide behind them however.

If YOU fail to see the differance then maybe YOU shold look in the mirror before you say this..

Cowboy, your arrogance is showing.

you are the one sounding incredibly arrogant here...anyone who disagrees with you is a "brain washed, mindless, idiot"

Got it.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Jesus, now Hussein is a terrorist. I thought he was the despot tyranical leader of that massive threat to the American way of life and man on the verge of using weapons if mass destruction against us? It just keeps getting better and better. How is Hussein any more of a terrorist than any world leader? How is he worse than Bush who bombed innocent civilians, by accident, on numerous occassions? How is he different from Clinton who ordered the launch of cruise missles into Iraq? He's different because WE won the war and HE lost. WE get to write what WE like about the story (nee truth) that we are most comfortable with.

Maybe I am indeed naive like you say, but I just do not like to see a double standard of invading a country with the excuses like Wolfowitz used (threat to the US, WMD, terrorist links, intimidation to his people) when that same brush can be applied to several other nations that are a more serious threat and have direct ties to al Qeada. If you're going to invade one, prepare to invade everywhere, which to me is an extremely poor strategy.

As I've said all along, this is a battle that needs to be done through diplomacy, education and the use of small special forces units. Large military intervention does nothing but create a larger problem. Small, nimble, reactive forces that can traverse borders efficiently is what will track down the terrorist threat. While that is taking place you work from the other end via diplomatic means and educate the masses. Education is the most pressing issue in this argument IMO.

And maybe I am naive to believe that if we spent one days bill that is being rolled up in Iraq (a billion dollars a day) that we could re-educate the region in a decade, but I do believe that is possible. I also believe that if we spent the money from one month ($30 billion) we could secure our borders and be safer from any terrorist threat on US soil. Maybe I am kidding myself. Maybe we, and the world itself, is a much safer place with the United States occupying the second most holy land Islam has to offer. Time will tell. A lot of innocent people are dying for all the wrong reasons IMO, and we are NOT sticking to the goals outlined after 9/11.

[Cowboy]

How is Hussein not a terrorist? Sending money to Palestinian's who sacrifice one of there own family members as suicide bomber is terrorist in my book. Lanny there is no question that he is involved in it.

Educating an entire region in a decade? Are you kidding me that is absolutely the most naive thing I have ever heard. It will take decades, upon decades.

[transplant99]

Jesus, now Hussein is a terrorist

yes Lanny...he is and was.

This is a guy that piad $25,000 to Palestinian families who had one of their own strap a bomb to their chest and pull the trigger on a bus or in a cafe in Isreal, wiping out women and children just going on about their business.

What would you call him...a martyr??

you need to read some more man.

[transplant99]

A lot of innocent people are dying for all the wrong reasons IMO, and we are NOT sticking to the goals outlined after 9/11

Odd statement.

I recall that Bush specifically names Afghanistan, Iraq AND N Korea in the speech to the nation in the days right AFTER 9/11.

Please correct me if im wrong.

[Cowperson]

A rather astonishing editorial in the New York Times today which appears to agree with the policy of first-strike, preventive wars but then decries the move into Iraq as disastrous.

Before the Iraq fiasco, American leaders rightly viewed war as a last resort, appropriate only when the nation's vital interests were actively threatened and reasonable diplomatic efforts had been exhausted. That view always left room for pre-emptive attacks; America is under no obligation to sit and wait, if it is clear that some enemy is actually preparing to strike first. But it correctly drew the line at preventive wars against potential foes who might, or might not, be thinking about doing something dangerous. As the administration's disastrous experience in Iraq amply demonstrates, that is still the wisest course and the one that keeps America most secure in an increasingly dangerous era.

Just to throw some fat on the fire:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/op...12sun1.html?hp

You may have to register to read.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowboy@Sep 12 2004, 10:51 PM
Educating an entire region in a decade? Are you kidding me that is absolutely the most naive thing I have ever heard. It will take decades, upon decades.

Whoa, I didn't mean it would take just a decade. I said that the billion dollars from one day would pay for a decade of education programs. Re-education takes generations, so it would be a long long long term investment.

As to Hussein being a terrorist, I see him as no more of a terrorist than Yassir Arrafat. Since Arrafat has dined at the Whitehouse I would have taken that to mean that Heads of State don't qualify. If that does not hold true, then Hussein is indeed a terrorist, and do is every American President who has ever given an executive order to drop a bomb on anyone in the past 50 years. Where do you draw the line about who is a terrorist and who is not? To people in the Middle East launching a cruise missle is a terrorist attack. So what is the difference, besides the side of the political fence you're sitting on?

Tranny, I thought the number one goal was to weed out al Qaeda terrorists and terminate that organization. bin Laden was target number one and the US would not rest until he was brought in, dead or alive. I've been through some speech transcripts from whitehouse.org and I haven't seen anything that implicated specific nations other than Afghanistan. They may come a month later, but right after 9/11 the Whitehouse was pretty clear about going after al Qaeda and putting them out of business. I may be wrong, but I didn't see anything in the first few weeks texts.

[transplant99]

Tranny, I thought the number one goal was to weed out al Qaeda terrorists and terminate that organization.

It was and still is I imagine.

I do recall the speech as saying the "axis of evil" which included the 3 i mentioned. It may very well of come some time after that intial speech however.

I think where you and i are butting heads is the "al queda terrorists vs all terrorists"...i dont draw a differance between the two.

Unannounced offensive attacks against unsuspecting targets is terrorism in my mind...doesnt matter who is driving the car.

As to Hussein being a terrorist, I see him as no more of a terrorist than Yassir Arrafat. Since Arrafat has dined at the Whitehouse I would have taken that to mean that Heads of State don't qualify. If that does not hold true, then Hussein is indeed a terrorist, and do is every American President who has ever given an executive order to drop a bomb on anyone in the past 50 years

good...we agree. Arafat is a terrorist as well. he gives the nod to suicide bombers just as Hussein did.

Its pretty clear, to me anyhow, anyone who finances or encourages young men and women to strap bombs on their bodies and blow the bejeezuz out of a bus full of Israelis just going to and from work...is a terrorist.

Its also clear to me that a guy who pays to train other young men to hijack and fly planes into a building full of innocent people is also a terrorist.

I dont see the differance between any of them. None were "elected" as leaders in an open vote for one thing and all have one common goal..the eradication of an entire race, and the destruction of a way of life they dont like.

The USA, for all its mistakes and warts and whatever else you want to label as...NEVER intentionally targeted building or busses or boats full of non-military people as targets for attacks.

There is a huge huge differance that you simply fail to admit.

[transplant99]

Found it...

It was the State of the Union address in January 2002. 4 months after 9/11.

transcript

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 12 2004, 04:56 PM
I recall that Bush specifically names Afghanistan, Iraq AND N Korea in the speech to the nation in the days right AFTER 9/11.

Please correct me if im wrong.

Wrong.

Iran, Iraq and North Korea are the lucky members in the mythical "Axis of Evil".

Hysterical Canadian journalist David Frum penned the term originally. His lovely wife made sure he got credit for it by mass-mailing this little missive;

"Dear all,

I realize this is very "Washington" of me to mention but my husband is responsible for the "Axis of Evil" segment of Tuesday's State of the Union address. It's not often a phrase one writes gains national notice—unless you're in advertising of course ("The Pause that refreshes")—so I'll hope you'll indulge my wifely pride in seeing this one repeated in headlines everywhere!!

D


As a Canadian, I must say that I am very proud of that another Canadian came up with this one.

EDIT: I changed a couple things.