2011 Canadian Election Thread

[North East Goon]

Ralph Goodale would be the best choice for the Liberals at this point. Alway's wondered why he never had more support for the top Liberal job?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Layton getting raked over the coals about some of his MP elects.

And rightfully so... but all it goes to prove is Canadians care more about the Leader and the Party than the individual MP.... Ms Las Vegas + Anders being the best examples.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Shazam

You'd be a greasy ##### eater.

Safe to assume this is a joke?

[Calgaryborn]

I think Harper did run a good campaign. He could have moved more voters his way but, that would have taken a promise of more spending. He gambled that enough Canadians would want to stay away from the American style run away spendings.

Sure the vote split is what got him the majorty but, now he has 4 years to show that his plan was the right one.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Oh sure, if it's something like saluting Nelson Mandela when he comes to Canada.

On matters of policy, they should disagree in the sense that the opposition party should, well, take the opposing view and hash out the issue. This is a good thing for Canadians. Let's hope the NDP does that job well.

An opposition party that agrees would scare the hell out of me. Either the ruling party makes the most rockin-est legislation ever, which does not ever occur, or the opposition is stupid.

While acting as devil's advocate can sometimes help, it can also hurt. No legislation is ever perfect. Always acting as though the ruling party is coming up with the worst ever legislation, even if secretly it is agreed to, is very hurtful. Ever heard of constructive and/or supportive criticism?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by SebC

You do that, and a big chunk of the carbon reduction will be wiped out by companies substituting US operations for Canadian ones.

Example: bitumen upgrading. Alberta produces bitumen from the oil sands. We have a competitive advantage in upgrading the bitumen to oil, because that way only the oil needs to be transported to market.

If we were to take unilateral action against carbon emissions, we'd risk losing the construction of new upgraders to Montana. If we make it economically preferable for companies to pipe diluted bitumen accross the border, do the separation and and upgrading there, then pump the diluent back to Alberta, then that's what the companies will do.

It hurts our economy, and the net effect on the environment is actually more carbon emissions, because now you instead of just transporting oil, you're transporting bitumen and diluent.

I guess I'm of the impression that having carbon at a fixed price is better for business though. It helps so that corporations can plan and have a set figure. Cap and Trade is basically a false economy subject to a lot of volatility, not to mention the games that can be played in general with that kind of system.

I'm not putting this forward as a "should we do something", but rather as a "we are going to do something" so let's pick the system that makes the most sense.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Layton getting raked over the coals about some of his MP elects.

Yup, I expect we'll be hearing some good crazy off-the-wall quotes coming from the new opposition, much like when the Reform Party first made its push and people were left asking "how did that idiot ever get elected" (unfortunately, some of them are still getting re-elected).

I'm sure Layton will be shopping for some muzzles soon.

[The Goon]

Originally Posted by getbak

Yup, I expect we'll be hearing some good crazy off-the-wall quotes coming from the new opposition, much like when the Reform Party first made its push and people were left asking "how did that idiot ever get elected" (unfortunately, some of them are still getting re-elected).

I'm sure Layton will be shopping for some muzzles soon.

Totally going to happen. When a rookie NDP government was elected in Ontario in 1990, there were many bad quotes, ethical breaches, misuse of resources, etc etc. This is going to be multiplied a hundred fold with our connected society today.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Not as big as they would like everyone to think.

Canada won big time though with the destruction of the Bloc.

Totally. The Quebec political landscape is now in play.

The real question is, if the NDP gives back some of Quebec and becomes less of a threat/force in parliament, do these new red tories in Ontario slip back to the Liberals.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by North East Goon

Ralph Goodale would be the best choice for the Liberals at this point. Alway's wondered why he never had more support for the top Liberal job?

According to his wikipedia page, he never pursued a run for the leadership because he doesn't speak French.

He'll likely get the most support to be their leader in the house because I doubt he has any long-term designs on the leadership, unlike Rae or Trudeau, and I don't think they'll want to just appoint a new leader without a convention and everything like they did the last time, so he'll be considered a safe "for now" choice.

[Slava]

I would expect a number of byelections over the next few years in Quebec actually.

Its a very demanding job in all honesty, and if you never really expected to win you probably aren't up to wanting to put that kind of effort in.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Slava

I guess I'm of the impression that having carbon at a fixed price is better for business though. It helps so that corporations can plan and have a set figure. Cap and Trade is basically a false economy subject to a lot of volatility, not to mention the games that can be played in general with that kind of system.

I'm not putting this forward as a "should we do something", but rather as a "we are going to do something" so let's pick the system that makes the most sense.

Isn't that kind of like saying, "we should just set a price of oil so that companies can better plan"?

Its only a "false economy" in that it is created by a government imposed cap, not a basic human want. But its still an economy and a market.

Don't you have to let the free market figure out the most efficient uses of carbon and most cost effective carbon reduction/credit generating projects?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Isn't that kind of like saying, "we should just set a price of oil so that companies can better plan"?

Its only a "false economy" in that it is created by a government imposed cap, not a basic human want. But its still an economy and a market.

Don't you have to let the free market figure out the most efficient uses of carbon and most cost effective carbon reduction/credit generating projects?

Well if the real goal is to reduce carbon emissions then the tax works better (that is what putting a price on carbon actually means). Cap and trade doesn't accomplish that at all and allows for manipulations and such.

A carbon tax though sets the price and allows for the planning. It also means that by reducing emissions companies will pay less....which is a good thing to encourage innovation and moving towards reducing the carbon emissions.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm not putting this forward as a "should we do something", but rather as a "we are going to do something" so let's pick the system that makes the most sense.

You did say that "we should chart our own course away from the US" ... I don't think that's smart, and I'm not sure your assumption that it's a "pick one" situation is correct either.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by getbak

According to his wikipedia page, he never pursued a run for the leadership because he doesn't speak French.

He'll likely get the most support to be their leader in the house because I doubt he has any long-term designs on the leadership, unlike Rae or Trudeau, and I don't think they'll want to just appoint a new leader without a convention and everything like they did the last time, so he'll be considered a safe "for now" choice.

Is it just me or is Justin Trudeau a massive d bag? At his results party last night he was wearing a suit with no tie and his dress shirt had at least 3 open buttons at the top... He also answered the questions he was being asked with more arrogance than any politician I've ever seen. Seems like a real piece of work.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well if the real goal is to reduce carbon emissions then the tax works better (that is what putting a price on carbon actually means). Cap and trade doesn't accomplish that at all and allows for manipulations and such.

A carbon tax though sets the price and allows for the planning. It also means that by reducing emissions companies will pay less....which is a good thing to encourage innovation and moving towards reducing the carbon emissions.

I hear ya, but a carbon tax only leaves one side of things up to the market...the carbon reduction side. It leaves the re-investment of those tax revenues in the hands of politicians and I think we can all agree that every dollar won't go back into green technology, and if it does it sure won't be done efficiently.

The elegance of a cap and trade system is that it leaves both sides up to the free market...the cost of emitting carbon and the efficient direction of capital towards credit-generating green technologies.

[yads]

Originally Posted by MacGruber

I stand by that post. Anders has proven time and again he's a terrible politician and an embarrassment for the Conservative party.

Can people expand on this. I've always heard the Anders hate and am not totally sure where it comes from. Out of all of the candidates in our riding he seemed the most qualified (I didn't vote for him fwiw.)

I took a look at his record and sure he's a backbencher that hasn't put forth any bills, but he at least shows up to vote.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Is it just me or is Justin Trudeau a massive d bag? At his results party last night he was wearing a suit with no tie and his dress shirt had at least 3 open buttons at the top... He also answered the questions he was being asked with more arrogance than any politician I've ever seen. Seems like a real piece of work.

Totally. Half his shirt undone, hands in his pockets, repeatedly shrugging his shoulders as if saying "the bigger failure tonight isn't my problem. I won my riding and that's all I care about".

I wanted to punch him in the face more than I wanted to turn the TV off during May's speech.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

I hear ya, but a carbon tax only leaves one side of things up to the market...the carbon reduction side. It leaves the re-investment of those tax revenues in the hands of politicians and I think we can all agree that every dollar won't go back into green technology, and if it does it sure won't be done efficiently.

The elegance of a cap and trade system is that it leaves both sides up to the free market...the cost of emitting carbon and the efficient direction of capital towards credit-generating green technologies.

Sure and that sounds good...except that its basically the false economy I was referring to. Then you have people trading credits for whatever price they can sell them for and it makes it really hard for say a multi-billion dollar operation to plan that their carbon costs in three years should be $X.

The other issue is that Cap and Trade hasn't really worked in Europe at all. I've seen that comment from both the environmental groups as well as from business.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Slava

Sure and that sounds good...except that its basically the false economy I was referring to. Then you have people trading credits for whatever price they can sell them for and it makes it really hard for say a multi-billion dollar operation to plan that their carbon costs in three years should be $X.

The other issue is that Cap and Trade hasn't really worked in Europe at all. I've seen that comment from both the environmental groups as well as from business.

EU ETS Phase III will be much better. Cap and trade works very well for SO2 emissions in the U.S.

But yes a carbon tax would be much much simpler.