Air France plane lost: 'no hope' of finding airliner ** UPDATE- Wreckage Found **

[Maritime Q-Scout]

I'm very interested to hear the findings of this. I haven't watched the CBC report on it that's linked earlier (I'll do that tomorrow) but I remember at the time the only thing they could think of was lightning, but the Airbus should have withstood that without problem.


On a side note: I assumed everyone clicked on the little white arrow in the red box next to the thread titles, that way you instantly go to the newest unread post

[KelVarnsen]

Black box of Air France jet recovered: investigators

ARIS — Search teams on Sunday retrieved one of two black box flight recorders of an Air France plane that crashed into the Atlantic while on a Rio-Paris flight in 2009, French investigators said."The investigation team located and identified the memory unit from the Flight Data Recorder (FDR) at 10 h UTC this morning," said France's Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA), which has been tasked with probing the disaster that killed 228 people.
In a statement, the agency added that the device was "in good physical condition" after it was "raised and lifted by the Remora 6000 ROV (robot submarine) on board the ship Ile de Sein at 16h40 UTC."
Investigators announced Wednesday that search teams had retrieved part of a black box flight recorder from the Airbus A330 but not the part containing the key data.
BEA said the chassis that held one of the recorders was found a day after a salvage ship began working to retrieve bodies and recently discovered wreckage using the Remora submarines.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/air...-1226048092355

[Buzzard]

^ This is BIG news.

Possible answers to one of the most mysterious plane crashes.

[billybob123]

That's an incredible job. How long do the locators in these things work for? I'm amazed that they found it.

Can't wait for the Mayday episode describing it. That deep and that isolated water and they found it.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by billybob123

That's an incredible job. How long do the locators in these things work for? I'm amazed that they found it.

Can't wait for the Mayday episode describing it. That deep and that isolated water and they found it.

I don't think the locator was working. Fortunately they found the wreckage a few weeks ago and the box was sitting near the surface. They are painted bright orange for a good reason.

[WhiteTiger]

I'm pretty surprised that the box was in "good physical condition" after sitting in salt water for that long. Those 'black boxes' are impressively tough!

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I'm pretty surprised that the box was in "good physical condition" after sitting in salt water for that long. Those 'black boxes' are impressively tough!

Well they are made to survive a plane crash so I'm sure they make them real tough.

[Yasa]

They're built Ford Tough™

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Well they are made to survive a plane crash so I'm sure they make them real tough.

I realize that. But surviving a plane crash and lasting to be considered "in good physical condition" in salt water is a pretty good achievement for metal.

[puckluck]

Not really. I bet it's very simple and easy.

[BlackArcher101]

Here's a bit of info on the construction of black boxes.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...black-box6.htm

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Buzzard

^ This is BIG news.

Possible answers to one of the most mysterious plane crashes.

They have had a pretty good idea what happened, this will just confirm it. The airbus is designed to give out warnings to headquarters when something is wrong, so they have that information and it points to faulty
pitot tubes that may have been rendered useless by Supercooling of water.

[sa226]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

They have had a pretty good idea what happened, this will just confirm it. The airbus is designed to give out warnings to headquarters when something is wrong, so they have that information and it points to faulty
pitot tubes that may have been rendered useless by Supercooling of water.

I assume you are referring to that "passionate eye" thing?

IMO there were quite a few assumptions made in that. I'm not saying they are out to lunch, they were very informed opinions by some of the leading experts, but it is still speculation.

I admit I didn't see the whole thing because I was stuck with a really slow Internet connection. The video seemed to make Supercooled water droplets sound like a rare phenomenon. It is certainly a phenomenon, but it is most certainly not rare. That is why the Pitot's are heated; anti ice protection.

So the heating elements failed on all 3 pitot tubes? How and why? One of the biggest aspects of aviation safety is redundancy. As scary as it sounds they play the odds. The odds of all 3 element failing? I don't know a thing about 330 systems, but I think it is pretty low.

I think and hope the FDR can put to rest the mystery.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by sa226

I assume you are referring to that "passionate eye" thing?

IMO there were quite a few assumptions made in that. I'm not saying they are out to lunch, they were very informed opinions by some of the leading experts, but it is still speculation.

I admit I didn't see the whole thing because I was stuck with a really slow Internet connection. The video seemed to make Supercooled water droplets sound like a rare phenomenon. It is certainly a phenomenon, but it is most certainly not rare. That is why the Pitot's are heated; anti ice protection.

So the heating elements failed on all 3 pitot tubes? How and why? One of the biggest aspects of aviation safety is redundancy. As scary as it sounds they play the odds. The odds of all 3 element failing? I don't know a thing about 330 systems, but I think it is pretty low.

I think and hope the FDR can put to rest the mystery.

Yes that is theory in the passionate eye doc and some other articles online all based on the same independent investigation.

Well the data boxes can hopefully shed light on that. Did the pilots fail to turn on the heating elements? Very unlikely....where the pitots faulty? This plane did not have the upgraded pitots that airbus had requested prior. So faulty pitots is more likely.

We will find out soon.

[nik-]

I watched that Passionate Eye documentary and thought it was very informative. The section about the log that the plane sent out with a series of critical errors seriously gave me a sick feeling in my stomach.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I'm pretty surprised that the box was in "good physical condition" after sitting in salt water for that long. Those 'black boxes' are impressively tough!

Things last a long time 2 miles down, had it been in only a 100 feet of water it would be toast by now.

[ken0042]

So here's a question- I've seen a couple of crashes caused by pitot tubes and failures. Why do modern airlines not have GPS as a backup? The $150 GPS I have for camping can give ground speed (I know air speed is more important; but it's better than nothing), direction, altitude, distance to landmarks, etc. You would think for a few thousand there could be a system installed as a backup that works completely differently than the pitot tubes.

[sa226]

Originally Posted by ken0042

So here's a question- I've seen a couple of crashes caused by pitot tubes and failures. Why do modern airlines not have GPS as a backup? The $150 GPS I have for camping can give ground speed (I know air speed is more important; but it's better than nothing), direction, altitude, distance to landmarks, etc. You would think for a few thousand there could be a system installed as a backup that works completely differently than the pitot tubes.

A bit of a loaded question.

In this specific case, I suppose they could have glanced at their ground speed, but that really wouldn't have helped. From a purely Human Factor perspective, those poor guys were faced with an onslaught of multiple failures in a span of a couple minutes, by the time they realized their airspeed was a factor they were in the ocean.

At that altitude they deal with Mach number which changes with temperature. Also your KIAS changes with air density. All a GPS gives you is your speed measured from point A to B, it really is apples to oranges comparing ground speed to air speed at that altitude.

To add to that, at that altitude they are nearing "coffin corner" which is basically the point where the aircraft's stall speed is coming close to the aircraft's maximum speed (or Critical Mach number) This is where automation helps tremendously because you are dealing with a narrow window. That could have compounded when they slowed to their Turbulence penetration speed, and then lost the autopilot.

So really at that point it would have been just as helpful to look at the current Playboy Centerfold as it was the groundspeed.

Still lots of speculation. I really hope we do hear some answers.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by T@T

Things last a long time 2 miles down, had it been in only a 100 feet of water it would be toast by now.

A stainless steel fork from my drawer would last 100 years 100 feet down. I don't see why a flight recorder would be toast after 2 years in the ocean no matter the depth unless it was so deep that hydrostatic pressure crushes it.

These things are built to survive plane crashes, to be recovered in deep oceans, survive hundreds of g forces and crushing damage, and even survive 3500° of heat.

[Ryan Coke]

sa226 explains it well, Ken. Most modern aircraft use GPS (WJ's 737's have 2 on board, as well as other types of nav systems), however groundspeed from the GPS is really very different, though related, information. Airspeed is what is critical from an aerodynamic standpoint, hence the importance of the pitot/static system, which measure ram (dynamic) air pressure vs. static air pressure.