The Ongoing Coyotes Sale Thread

[PackersFan]

Originally Posted by MacGruber

this is as likely to happen as Bettman becoming a player and captaining the Flames to a Stanley Cup next season

And that's why I said it WON'T happen. What part did you miss?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by PackersFan

3)I think the Bettman issue is 2 fold a) He doesn't want to admit he was wrong about hockey in Phoenix, and b) The owners must be telling him to put up the best possible shot to keep the team there. If any one of the 29 other owners wanted the coyotes to move, don't you think it one of them would have said something in an interview?

If argument b is correct, then you have defeated your own argument a. If the owners are saying to try and save the market, then why are you demonizing Bettman for following his bosses wishes? And no, it is doubtful that any of the other owners would be making public comments on things like this no matter what their opinion. That is one of the things they pay Bettman and Daly for to do: present the league's opinion on matters.

As far as being wrong about hockey in Phoenix, I always find it cute how people delude themselves into thinking that Bettman personally forced a team there. The decision to focus on an expansion plan that criss crossed the continent predated Bettman by three years, and it was the board of governors that approved the relocation to Phoenix. And should it become necessary, it will be that same board of governors that will approve the relocation out of Phoenix.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ya, umm, no. It's a debt owed, period. You can't get insurance to cover a debt owed simply because there's litigation over the matter.

Well then I guess if the city is court ordered not to pay the debt the NHL is out 25 million then.

[Resolute 14]

And on what grounds, short of bankruptcy, could a court relieve the city of a debt owed?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And on what grounds, short of bankruptcy, could a court relieve the city of a debt owed?

If the contract was deemed illegal in the first place under Arizona Law.

It would obviously end up in a law suit that the NHL would easily win, presumably against the city managers or legal staff, who would also I assume be covered by the cities legal insurance. It would put the cities premium up no end!

[PackersFan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

As far as being wrong about hockey in Phoenix, I always find it cute how people delude themselves into thinking that Bettman personally forced a team there. The decision to focus on an expansion plan that criss crossed the continent predated Bettman by three years, and it was the board of governors that approved the relocation to Phoenix. And should it become necessary, it will be that same board of governors that will approve the relocation out of Phoenix.

The only option left to attract new fans would be to have an early bird special. Lunch at noon followed by the game @ 2pm, for ALL 41 home games. It leaves the snowbirds time to get home to be in bed by 8pm

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If the contract was deemed illegal in the first place under Arizona Law.

It would obviously end up in a law suit that the NHL would easily win, presumably against the city managers or legal staff, who would also I assume be covered by the cities legal insurance. It would put the cities premium up no end!

Well that's a pretty convenient way to shift responsibility to your insurer, I'm sure they never though to close that 'well it went to a court so I guess we're now on the hook' loophole.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Well that's a pretty convenient way to shift responsibility to your insurer, I'm sure they never though to close that 'well it went to a court so I guess we're now on the hook' loophole.

The level of imcompetence the City has shown so far is staggering, and the league is just plain desperate to keep the team there, so nothing would suprise me.

So far Hulsizer and the GI are the only ones that seem to have any common sense what so ever.

The insurance company won't mind, they will just take the money back from the city in the form of much higher premiums forever, in the end the tax payer will end up paying for it.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The level of imcompetence the City has shown so far is staggering, and the league is just plain desperate to keep the team there, so nothing would suprise me.

So far Hulsizer and the GI are the only ones that seem to have any common sense what so ever.

The insurance company won't mind, they will just take the money back from the city in the form of much higher premiums forever, in the end the tax payer will end up paying for it.

You're still missing the point that legal insurance policies don't cover debts that you willingly enter into.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're still missing the point that legal insurance policies don't cover debts that you willingly enter into.

Insurance policies cover whatever the hell your willing to pay for. The more they cover the more you pay, knowing they were treading on dodgy ground, the city mave have, for a crap load of dosh, inserted a specific rider covering them in the event of the payments being ruled illegal.

If the GI takes the city to court and the court rules the payment of 25 million is in breach of the gifting law then the city can't pay it, that is cut and dry.

At that point the NHL has 2 choices, eat the 25 million or take the agents for the city to court for entering into a legal agreement they had no authority to sign, my guess would be, they (the mayor, the city manager and the like) are covered by insurance while acting in good faith for the city, therefore when they lose the case and the court orders them personally to pay the NHL, the insurance would pick up the tab, technically this isn't insurance paying the debt for the city.

It is also possible their is a clause in the contract saying in the event of the 25 million being ruled a gift the city isn't obligated to pay it and the NHL eats the cost, I doubt the NHL would have signed on to that though.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

No question Winnipeg would be more viable than Phoenix, even long term. The Coyotes lost $37 million this past season with an attendance average of 12,000. If they sold the remaining 5,000 seats at $75 apiece over 45 games that would give them $17 million extra. They would still lose $20 million per season.

Yeah, that 12,000 average doesn't mean much when they are cut rate and freebie tickets. When you see this on a new team, you can excuse it as trying to build the fan base. On an established team after 15 years, it's the sign of things gone south. It seems the only ones who don't see this are Gary, a couple of fans and the CoG.

Hulsizer I just don't get as even if he can get the team for nothing, he's still responsible for the debts. The only thing I can see is he's deluded by Gary's salesmanship, he's willing to spend for a new toy or he's got an out to move the team and I've heard he can't.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Insurance policies cover whatever the hell your willing to pay for. The more they cover the more you pay, knowing they were treading on dodgy ground, the city mave have, for a crap load of dosh, inserted a specific rider covering them in the event of the payments being ruled illegal.

If the GI takes the city to court and the court rules the payment of 25 million is in breach of the gifting law then the city can't pay it, that is cut and dry.

At that point the NHL has 2 choices, eat the 25 million or take the agents for the city to court for entering into a legal agreement they had no authority to sign, my guess would be, they (the mayor, the city manager and the like) are covered by insurance while acting in good faith for the city, therefore when they lose the case and the court orders them personally to pay the NHL, the insurance would pick up the tab, technically this isn't insurance paying the debt for the city.

It is also possible their is a clause in the contract saying in the event of the 25 million being ruled a gift the city isn't obligated to pay it and the NHL eats the cost, I doubt the NHL would have signed on to that though.

Your understanding of the legal issues involved here is completely non-existant. Personal responsibility for actions as a government official applies in situations where people act clearly outside of their powers. Nothing about this falls into that area. Your argument would get you laughed out of court.

You're right though, you can buy insurance for anything. But buying insurance for a debt of $25mil, that is evidenced by a fully executed contract would cost you $25mil. It's not dischargable simply because there was litigation.

[trew]

The other thing is that this isn't a debt at all. Glendale put the full 25
million into escrow last year. The NHL just has to submit proof of the Coyote losses and the money will be released by a third party.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Your understanding of the legal issues involved here is completely non-existant. Personal responsibility for actions as a government official applies in situations where people act clearly outside of their powers. Nothing about this falls into that area. Your argument would get you laughed out of court.

You're right though, you can buy insurance for anything. But buying insurance for a debt of $25mil, that is evidenced by a fully executed contract would cost you $25mil. It's not dischargable simply because there was litigation.

As Trew has pointed out the arguement is moot if the money went into escrow, ignoring that though for the sake of conversation, if the 25 million was deemed to be a gift and payment stopped by court order how would the NHL get its money then?

[Jordan!]

I'm hearing there is a Hockey team and Arena item on the CoG agenda for Tuesday.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

There is, it's published on their agenda. Hopefully wrap this turd up.

[troutman]

Will Winnipeg get left at the altar by NHL?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle2004848/

One aspect of the process that is opaque, however, is where and how the games of the reborn Winnipeg Jets (or Falcons or Polar Bears) will be telecast in Canada.

How lucrative is the Winnipeg/Manitoba TV market to NHL rights? Like everything else about Winnipeg in the NHL, it’s marginal.

Currently, the potential Jets/Falcons/Polar Bears market in Manitoba and Saskatchewan represent just 11 per cent of the CBC's national TV viewing audience – and they’re almost all watching hockey already. So, if you’re a national advertiser, adding Winnipeg only moves eyeballs from one team to another.

A key decision may be who gets Saskatchewan as a territory. Currently, Edmonton and Calgary have divided the market, but how much will the NHL give to a potential Winnipeg franchise?

[troutman]

NHL, Glendale, Hulsizer try to cobble together cash to save Coyotes sale
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...to-cobble.html

Sources familiar with the Coyotes situation say the three parties are looking at a few avenues to get the $100 million to facilitate Hulsizer’s estimated $170 million purchase of the team.

The most cited formula in getting to the magic number of $170 million entails:

• $70 million from Hulsizer’s ownership group
• $50 million via city of Glendale bonds
• $25 million from Glendale covering the Coyotes financial losses
• $25 million in some kind of new financing or deferred payment plan from the NHL.

The NHL and Hulsizer also are looking at other financing avenues, but time is running out on a deal and Glendale may not have the time to develop another money stream.

[troutman]

Samuelsson new coach in Modo
http://translate.google.com/translat...tranare_i_modo

Probably just a coincidence.

[troutman]

http://twitter.com/#!/brahmresnik/st...99332237000704

Moodys.com data indicate Glendale bond offering for #Coyotes was pulled from market 2 wks ago, on April 14. h/t @RojoDestrud0