2011 Canadian Election Thread

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Slava

I get that people are likely to disagree with pieces of the platforms of the party that they end up supporting. I just find it somewhat dishonest to campaign against the other parties with the exact same policies being in their platform.

Exact same by name or exact same by implementation and details?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Exact same by name or exact same by implementation and details?

Well in some ways that is impossible to know until they've been elected, don't you agree? All I know is that on some of the points where the CPC wants to score points on the NDP they are planning to implement the same program.

On this point though, asymetrical federalism wasn't a formal position of the Conservatives (to my knowledge) until this campaign, but Harper spoke about that a few weeks ago while trying to woo PQ voters. Cap and trade is something they've had as a principle for at least two years....so its disingenuous to try to villainize another party IMO.

[CaptainCrunch]

As I go through the NDP costs document I get really curious at how they arrive at their figures.

For example they want to add 25,000 daycare spaces in their first year at a cost of $300 million, yet in the Quebec budget where they have a well established daycare program they added 15,000 daycare spaces at a cost of $568 million dollars.

When I look at the revenues side they have 4 years worth of revenue inreases that average 12 billion per year. Ignoring the tax haven and community crime revenues. They have increases in business taxes averaging $8.4 billion. They have a 2 billion dollar per year revenue jump due to the removal of the fossil fuel subsidy.

Nowhere in the document do they show the cap and trade revenues which have been estimated to go to 7 billion per year. So under their platform, the largest employers in this country will get the crap hammered out of them.

This is a vacuum document, they expect that they can basically create a massive cost increase to business to pay for their social programs, yet it will have no effect on employment or business reinvestment.

http://xfer.ndp.ca/2011/2011-Platfor...mSS_web_en.pdf

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Slava

On this point though, asymetrical federalism wasn't a formal position of the Conservatives (to my knowledge) until this campaign, but Harper spoke about that a few weeks ago while trying to woo PQ voters. Cap and trade is something they've had as a principle for at least two years....so its disingenuous to try to villainize another party IMO.

By all accounts though, cap and trade is not being implemented the same between all three parties. As has been pointed out, the CPC would not go the route of cap and trade unless the US does as well. This would mean not putting ourselves at a disadvantage to potential American competitors. The NDP/Liberals woud implement cap and trade regardless of what the US does. That's a pretty big difference and by constantly glossing over this, I think you're the one that is being disingenuous.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by peter12

Hey evman, I just want to be clear that there was no spite intended. It's just harmless boasting on my part, and I was obviously trying to antagonize you. So please, it's not personal at all.

Two thinkers... hmmm... or perhaps books?

Plato's Republic, and Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil. Perhaps, Strauss' On Tyranny as well, especially the Kojeve bits.

I'm really not much of a neoliberal at all.

EDIT: Selections from Rousseau's Emile, and Letter to M. D'Alembert as well.

Clearly, quite radical, and I definitely see a massive gap in my understanding of Aristotle. But I also lean far towards classical and continental thought. I take it you do more analytical?

My education is primarily classical and early modern. My university has a massive hole in it when it comes to continental philosophy. We do Kant and Heidegger...and that's about it. Just as well, because I'm not a fan of texts that are deliberately obfuscating (Kant comes to mind here). I prefer texts that elucidate important ideas in "simple" terms. Examples of this are the decent translations of Plato's dialogues.

I also have a minor in normative ethics, so I have an extensive background iin that regard, although it's not my favourite area of philosophy.

Interestingly, one of the works that influenced my personal political philosophy the most is Rawls' "A Theory of Justice", as well as Hobbes' Leviathan. And a random paper called "Tragedy of the Commons" by Garrett Hardin as well. These works gave birth to my belief in the importance of the state, and that society's freedom is maximized not with absolute freedom (anarchy), but with a surprisingly large (by an Alberta message board's account) amount of state intervention.

For example, this explains my view that home schooling should be outlawed and that vaccines should be mandatory. These are things conservatives and libertarians (and many others) would bristle at, but no one can doubt these policies would not benefit the whole. Too often, people use the word "freedom" to defend otherwise odious and wantonly dangerous acts, such as not having your children inoculated.

I also have an extensive background in Aristotle's corpus, as well as Leibniz and Descartes' main works. I also hold a special affection for Spinoza's philosophy.

Individually, "Meno" is probably my favourite work.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ark2

By all accounts though, cap and trade is not being implemented the same between all three parties. As has been pointed out, the CPC would not go the route of cap and trade unless the US does as well. This would mean not putting ourselves at a disadvantage to potential American competitors. The NDP/Liberals woud implement cap and trade regardless of what the US does. That's a pretty big difference and by constantly glossing over this, I think you're the one that is being disingenuous.

What also separates out the NDP is

They have talked incessantly about going after the Oil companies and energy sectors, I've yet to hear him go after the manufacturer sector in voter rich Ontario

They want to implement a cap and trade which would have the biggest effect on Alberta and Saskatchewan's energy companies, which would erode their revenues

Then attack number two they would take away the fossil fuel subsidies at the same time

Then attack number three they would also bump corporate tax rates up to 19.5 percent.

Then Layton talks about regulating gas pricing.

so he would in effect create a very hostile business environment for the Oil companies which are Alberta's biggest employers, not allow them to balance their revenues and losses, and he somehow expects that this wouldn't result in a massive loss of jobs.

Or he doesn't regulate the gas prices and every single cost from food to power bills to gas bills go through the roof.

I also have a problem with an unbalanced platform that effects people like me who already lose 40+% of my paycheck every single time to spend on frivolous programs that at this time when we're coming out of a recession should not be a priority. I'm all for helping the poor and downtrodden, but not at the price of me having to join them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ark2

By all accounts though, cap and trade is not being implemented the same between all three parties. As has been pointed out, the CPC would not go the route of cap and trade unless the US does as well. This would mean not putting ourselves at a disadvantage to potential American competitors. The NDP/Liberals woud implement cap and trade regardless of what the US does. That's a pretty big difference and by constantly glossing over this, I think you're the one that is being disingenuous.

This, and there is no or zero chance of the U.S. ever implementing a cap and trade system due to the near terminal tipping point of their economy.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by evman150

For example, this explains my view that home schooling should be outlawed and that vaccines should be mandatory. These are things conservatives and libertarians (and many others) would bristle at, but no one can doubt these policies would not benefit the whole. Too often, people use the word "freedom" to defend otherwise odious and wantonly dangerous acts, such as not having your children inoculated.

Ah, no it doesn't. I thought you philosophy students were supposed to know how to form arguments.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm all for home schooling, when I was growing up we had a neighbor that home school his kids, and his daughters were hot, and really wild because they were under their parents supervision all the time so when they did go out, they went nut.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm all for home schooling, when I was growing up we had a neighbor that home school his kids, and his daughters were hot, and really wild because they were under their parents supervision all the time so when they did go out, they went nut.

Well, apparently evman150 read "A Theory of Justice", therefore, home schooling is an erosion of freedom lol

[Reggie Dunlop]

BREAKING NEWS.... Jack Layton found naked in a massage parlour in 1996, but was never charged -- Vice cop

On SunTV

[Daradon]

So what's worse? A strong NDP, or a strong Bloc?

I have no love for the NDP platform, (though I do like Jack as a leader, wish he was with a different party) but I don't mind this sudden surge in popularity if it comes at the hand of the Bloc.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Ah, no it doesn't. I thought you philosophy students were supposed to know how to form arguments.

Wasn't making an argument. Just giving a genealogy of my beliefs.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

BREAKING NEWS.... Jack Layton found naked in a massage parlour in 1996, but was never charged -- Vice cop

On SunTV

Well as a good socialist its no surprise that he didn't want to take care of his own needs.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

BREAKING NEWS.... Jack Layton found naked in a massage parlour in 1996, but was never charged -- Vice cop

On SunTV

Not a big deal. Ignatieff told a bunch of grade schoolers he smoked pot at their age the other day. Harper is due up for something juicy as well.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Not a big deal.

There was a KLEENEX involved!!!!!1

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

There was a KLEENEX involved!!!!!1

is this for real lol?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

BREAKING NEWS.... Jack Layton found naked in a massage parlour in 1996, but was never charged -- Vice cop

On SunTV

Ah, so this is what Fox News North has to offer. I put zero faith in the validity of this story until I see it reported by a real news agency, but let's just pretend for a second that it's 100% true.

Why should I care that Layton went to a rub & tug 15 years ago? I won't vote for his party because of their disastrous economic policies; what he did in his personal life before he was even involved in politics has no bearing on my voting preference at all.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Ark2

is this for real lol?

Possible LINKS to ASIAN GANGS!!!

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Ark2

By all accounts though, cap and trade is not being implemented the same between all three parties. As has been pointed out, the CPC would not go the route of cap and trade unless the US does as well. This would mean not putting ourselves at a disadvantage to potential American competitors. The NDP/Liberals woud implement cap and trade regardless of what the US does. That's a pretty big difference and by constantly glossing over this, I think you're the one that is being disingenuous.

I have no idea where you and CC are getting that information from. The CPC has just said that they were in favour of cap and trade. They haven't actually given any details about their implementation of it at all.