The Ongoing Coyotes Sale Thread

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by Bluzman

@kenwardskorner
Joey Kenward

Is that actually a reliable source? Don't recognize the name.

[dash_pinched]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

Is that actually a reliable source? Don't recognize the name.

He's based out of Vancouver and currenly is doing a lot of hockey coverage for the WHL...Obviously I don't know his sources, but I'd say he's reliable.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by valo403

No, at least not in the warped 'the NHL = Bettman doing whatever he feels like' scenario you've created for yourself. Keep on pretending you know what you're talking about though.

You see this is CP's biggest problem. People like you. I don't know if you take a daily dose of arrogant pills but whatever you do, I'm sure you struggle with friends. If you don't, you probably don't act like this in the real world so whenever you and Resolute are done being the kings of arrogance and condescension let me know.

Are you arguing the NHL doesn't own the Coyotes? Are you arguing Bettman is not the commissioner of the NHL?

You see I actually have no idea what the F you're arguing because instead I have to try and dissect your BS instead of an actual debate which is what the message board is for.

[Tsawwassen]

Goldwater's potential lawsuit has cost Glendale 25 million bucks.

Part of the original agreement between the NHL, Chicago businessman Matthew Hulsizer and Glendale was that Hulsizer would refund the city the $25-million it promised the NHL to cover part of the Coyotes’ 2010-11 losses.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/glendale-on-the-hook-for-25-million/article2002778/

Heck this soap opera has outlasted the Energizer bunny and there is still no end in sight.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

You see this is CP's biggest problem. People like you. I don't know if you take a daily dose of arrogant pills but whatever you do, I'm sure you struggle with friends. If you don't, you probably don't act like this in the real world so whenever you and Resolute are done being the kings of arrogance and condescension let me know.

Better to be willfully arrogant than willfully ignorant.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Better to be willfully arrogant than willfully ignorant.

Classic.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Tsawwassen

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/glendale-on-the-hook-for-25-million/article2002778/

From that link:

The NHL presented a bill to Glendale on Tuesday for the $25-million and demanded payment by Monday. The Coyotes’ total losses for the 2010-11 season were $36.6-million.

Oh geez, that is not going to go over well with the GWI... the whole Bond Principle + Interest for the parking rights is debateable but I see no way that the $25M to cover losses can't be considered a gift.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

You see this is CP's biggest problem. People like you. I don't know if you take a daily dose of arrogant pills but whatever you do, I'm sure you struggle with friends. If you don't, you probably don't act like this in the real world so whenever you and Resolute are done being the kings of arrogance and condescension let me know.

Are you arguing the NHL doesn't own the Coyotes? Are you arguing Bettman is not the commissioner of the NHL?

You see I actually have no idea what the F you're arguing because instead I have to try and dissect your BS instead of an actual debate which is what the message board is for.

I'm arguing that the commisioner of the NHL doesn't have absolute authority to do whatever he wants. He is not an emperor. I"m not sure why this point seems to be so difficult to grasp. He is an employee of the owners. If they don't like what he is doing they replace him.

Edit: Oh, and the arrogance comes from being simply fed up with this idea being floated by so many people. It's not a hard concept, it takes willful ignorance of the situation to believe it and I'm not going to pretend like there's a discussion to be had on the point. There isn't.

[troutman]

Here is the NHL's actual invoice:

http://www.azcentral.com/ic/communit...es-invoice.pdf

Losses of about $5 - $6 Million per month.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Scrollbar

It's relevant because the team would be moving from Phoenix to Winnipeg. Seems simple enough, yes?

I can get behind the argument that Winnipeg could gain more revenue than Phoenix, sure. But that doesn't automatically mean that Winnipeg is a viable NHL market in the long term.

Phoenix is losing tens of millions each year, and Winnipeg has been forcasted by CBC to be in the middle of the pack for revenue. Seems like a good swap.

Yes, except that the report was fundamentally flawed.

For instance, it projected that Winnipeg would receive a maximum potential revenue sharing share of $13 million. Problem is, teams in the top half of league revenue are ineligible for the cost redistribution system in the first place (CBA 49.3 B (i)). Also, that system is designed to get the teams to the salary midpoint. So if Winnipeg were a higher revenue generating team but still qualified, they wouldn't be getting nearly what is being suggested.

I suspect there are other aspects of revenue sharing beyond just this part, but all told, I believe the $13 million figure is bogus.

The $45 million in ticket revenue is, likewise, bogus. They arrived at that total with what appears to be straight multiplication: $75 x 15,015 x 41 games. Except that the stated capacity includes luxury suites, which is noted as a separate $10 million. CBC's projection is double dipping on ticket sales. It is also assuming 0 tickets given away. Now, Winnipeg wouldn't be giving away thousands of tickets like some other teams, but even the most frugal are giving away a couple hundred a game for various promotional reasons.

Television: CBC says $19 million in broadcast revenue. Well, NBC/Versus ($200,), CBC ($100m), TSN ($40m) and RDS ($15m) will average just under $12 million per team next year. CBC's report came out before the NBC deal was announced, so my estimation is that CBC was assuming about $10 million in local broadcast rights for Winnipeg. According to the Toronto Star, the NHL made about $500 million total on its national and regional deals. Subtracting the national deals, that put the average regional deal at about $8.5 million. Given Winnipeg's market size, one would have to be remarkably optimistic to think Winnipeg would go above that average, which is undoubtedly inflated by teams like Toronto, Montreal, Pittsburgh and the like.

In short, CBC's projections are wildly inflated, and combine both best case scenarios with unrealistic scenarios to come at a totally fabricated figure.

What you call "anti-Winnipeg trolling", I call critical thinking. Don't just swallow what you are told wholesale. Take the time to consider the numbers, and ask yourself if they truly are valid.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Parallex

From that link:



Oh geez, that is not going to go over well with the GWI... the whole Bond Principle + Interest for the parking rights is debateable but I see no way that the $25M to cover losses can't be considered a gift.

The ship might have sailed on that point when GWI didn't challenge the agreement when it was first made. But one can guess they would make a big stink about it if the Hulsizer deal continues to drag on, and the city is asked to make a similar guarantee next season.

But, in what will make an ironic twist, Hulsizer has already agreed to cover that $25 million once the deal closes. So, by opposing the deal, Goldwater is actively working to cost the city that $25 million they would otherwise get back.

[Scrollbar]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Honestly that's what I hear in my head when I read your posts about the Jets coming back. The investors in Winnipeg and the NHL have all agreed Winnipeg is a viable market so I'm not likely going to be persuaded by some stranger on the internet who thinks they have superiour critical thinking skills over billionaires(who want to use their own money).

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Scrollbar

Honestly that's what I hear in my head when I read your posts about the Jets coming back. The investors in Winnipeg and the NHL have all agreed Winnipeg is a viable market so I'm not likely going to be persuaded by some stranger on the internet who thinks they have superiour critical thinking skills over billionaires(who want to use their own money).

Why don't you use your critical thinking skills and argue his points?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The ship might have sailed on that point when GWI didn't challenge the agreement when it was first made.

IIRC the thinking at the time was that it wouldn't constitute a gift until the city actually actually hands (or attempts to hand) over the money. I guess we'll know on May 2/3rd either way.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So, by opposing the deal, Goldwater is actively working to cost the city that $25 million they would otherwise get back.

Unless they can get a judge to block the transfer? I'm no legal eagle so I dunno what the legal option are for blocking an unconstitutional cash transfer.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Scrollbar

Honestly that's what I hear in my head when I read your posts about the Jets coming back. The investors in Winnipeg and the NHL have all agreed Winnipeg is a viable market so I'm not likely going to be persuaded by some stranger on the internet who thinks they have superiour critical thinking skills over billionaires(who want to use their own money).

Not to rain on your parade but the NHL would think Lethbridge was a viable market as long as it had a rink and someone dumb enough to pony up a couple of hundred mill'.

'Viable' to the NHL just means someone with a cheque book, it doesn't even have to be his cheque book, as we discovered with 'Boots'.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

IIRC the thinking at the time was that it wouldn't constitute a gift until the city actually actually hands (or attempts to hand) over the money. I guess we'll know on May 2/3rd either way.



Unless they can get a judge to block the transfer? I'm no legal eagle so I dunno what the legal option are for blocking an unconstitutional cash transfer.

My guess, if they can block the transfer, the NHL sues and wins easily, the cities legal insurance then pays the 25 mill plus costs.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Scrollbar

Honestly that's what I hear in my head when I read your posts about the Jets coming back. The investors in Winnipeg and the NHL have all agreed Winnipeg is a viable market so I'm not likely going to be persuaded by some stranger on the internet who thinks they have superiour critical thinking skills over billionaires(who want to use their own money).

Rich investors thought Phoenix was a viable market too, once upon a time.

[cznTiburon]

Originally Posted by Scrollbar

Honestly that's what I hear in my head when I read your posts about the Jets coming back. The investors in Winnipeg and the NHL have all agreed Winnipeg is a viable market so I'm not likely going to be persuaded by some stranger on the internet who thinks they have superiour critical thinking skills over billionaires(who want to use their own money).

Are you friends with all the forecasters, billionaires and execs who claim that Winnipeg is viable? are they not strangers who have done exactly what Resloute has done (only using their real names instead)?

Seems to me he has presented some pretty strong indicators that maybe some of the numbers arent as viable as they are being presented. You shouldnt be so quick to dismiss things because of the messenger.

As said above, lots of investors and billionaires have thought that both Atlanta and Phoenix were viable options and look how well that turned out. You should really learn from what everyone has to say, not just brush off something when presented with seemingly quality information

[flambers]

Originally Posted by cznTiburon

Are you friends with all the forecasters, billionaires and execs who claim that Winnipeg is viable? are they not strangers who have done exactly what Resloute has done (only using their real names instead)?

Seems to me he has presented some pretty strong indicators that maybe some of the numbers arent as viable as they are being presented. You shouldnt be so quick to dismiss things because of the messenger.

As said above, lots of investors and billionaires have thought that both Atlanta and Phoenix were viable options and look how well that turned out. You should really learn from what everyone has to say, not just brush off something when presented with seemingly quality information

Yet the NHL is looking to move a franchise back to Winnipeg go figure.......

[cznTiburon]

Originally Posted by flambers

Yet the NHL is looking to move a franchise back to Winnipeg go figure.......

Im not talking viability, im just commenting people dismissing some of the facts because they are presented by people on the internet. I am not claiming to be in the know about anything here, but i do like to read what people have to say and see both sides, which is what people should do when discussing this.

Its not as clear cut as some would make it out to be