The Ongoing Coyotes Sale Thread

[Scrollbar]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

Nothing could have possibly changed in 15 years. The Canadian dollar, city population and growth rate, population in surrounding regions, salary structure, head office locations... Nope. Nothing changed.

you dont know what the hell your talking about

[Muta]

Originally Posted by moon

Who is saying both those things?

I don't think that Phoenix is a good market but Phoenix being bad doesn't make Winnipeg a good market.

Bouw will be the first to put Winnipeg down as a terrible market, but will also be the first to prop up the Coyotes after fifteen years of consistent finanical failure (including crappy attendance figures). Which is something he's ignoring.

Winnipeg might not be the ideal market, but it couldn't do any less than Phoenix currently is.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by moon

Things have changed with the NHL as well.

Absolutely. My point was just because something didn't work nearly two decades ago, doesn't mean it won't work under different circumstances.

Originally Posted by Scrollbar

you dont know what the hell your talking about

What are the major reasons hockey failed in WPG? Canadian financial climate? Salary cap and Canadian dollar have addressed. Attendance? Population growth of both Winnipeg and Saskatchewan giving them a much larger attendance pool ro draw from.

A common argument why it won't work this time is the lack of corporate support, in which case there's a lot more corporations and head offices in Winnipeg now than there were in the 90s.

I'm not saying that Winnipeg is a sure fire successful market. The dollar can drop again, the collective bargaining agreement can change, economies change. But if the NHL goes to Winnipeg again and fails again, it likely won't be for the same reasons it failed 15 years ago.

Also, you apparently missed my sarcasm.

[Scrollbar]

I have changed my mind completly today. No longer do I want the Coyotes. Keep em Bouw. I want the Thrashers. Realistically it makes more sense for everyone involved.

As far as the naysayers go, the differences between Winnipeg from today and 16 years ago are numerous.

More small business.
More home ownership
More housing starts
More disposable income
Lowest unemployment in Canada
NHL ready arena owned by the people who will own the team, complete with revenue generating boxes and suites the old barn didnt have.


Keep your head in the sand if you want but Winnipeg today is ready for an NHL team, come, join our reindeer games. The night the Jets skate out on the ice for the first time in 15~ years will be a night for all Canadians, not just Winnipegers.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Coyotes will stay, Thrashers to Winnipeg. Give it about 15 more days to work itself out.

For your sake, I hope you're right, because your batting average sucks right now.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

For your sake, I hope you're right, because your batting average sucks right now.

His timing may be wrong, but this is what he's been saying all along would happen. If it does happen, he's batting 1.000.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

His timing may be wrong, but this is what he's been saying all along would happen. If it does happen, he's batting 1.000.

1. A goal only counts if it goes in before the buzzer goes.
2, You can't be batting 1.000 if you called this to be resolved in a matter of days months ago.

I'm too lazy to go look, but he'd be batting about a 0.0275 for all the times he's been wrong if he gets this one right.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Coyotes will stay, Thrashers to Winnipeg. Give it about 15 more days to work itself out.

How big of a donation to CP do you plan on backing that statement with this time?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Coyotes will stay, Thrashers to Winnipeg. Give it about 15 more days to work itself out.

Yup yup...same thing I believe.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

1. A goal only counts if it goes in before the buzzer goes.
2, You can't be batting 1.000 if you called this to be resolved in a matter of days months ago.

I'm too lazy to go look, but he'd be batting about a 0.0275 for all the times he's been wrong if he gets this one right.

He'd have gotten the major issue correct, and the minor issue of the timing incorrect. If the thrashers end up in Winnipeg, and the Coyotes stay in Phoenix, SCH has been essentially correct the whole time. He won't be 2.75% correct, like you say.

But this talk is a bit silly until whatever happens, happens.

I still think that there is two teams (PHO and ATL) that should really move, but the NHL only sees one option for moving a team to by next season, therefore all of the work to try and make Phoenix work, since its the most likely of the two teams to stay for next season.

If Kansas City had an owner, or if Quebec City had a new arena, the NHL might have given up on Phoenix already.

There are other options that would work better in the long term, but would take longer to set up/move. A second team isn't going to move into Toronto by next season, nor does Hamilton have a proper arena either, plus negotiations with the TML would have to happen first.

Atlanta's owners are desperately trying to get out, and no one wants to buy the team to keep it in Atlanta. The same owners own the arena, so there isn't any issues with the city like there is in Phoenix. I'd be quite surprised if the Thrashers play in Atlanta next season. I think the NHL is just waiting as long as it can to see if there will be one or two teams moving. If just Atlanta is going to move, they will go to Winnipeg. If Phoenix and Atlanta are moving, Phoenix will likely go to Winnipeg, and Atlanta to... Quebec City I'd imagine.

[taco.vidal]

If Winnipeg gets a team again, a huge difference will be the ownership group and the building. The Jets didnt have strong ownership (Shenkarow) and had a terrible building deal (Winnipeg Enterprises). This will make a huge difference this time around.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

So if it turns out to be Atl to Winnipeg what do the divisions look like?

Detroit to the East? Nashville to the East?

And if someone from the Central div goes east how does the West realign? Dallas to the Central and Colorado to the Pacific? Colorado to the Pacific? Minnesota to the Central?

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Hopefully Bouw read the part in the Cupcake summit about Hulsizer relocating the team to KC.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by PegCityFlamesFan

Hopefully Bouw read the part in the Cupcake summit about Hulsizer relocating the team to KC.

See, I actually listened to the thing and understood the context.. it was in jest and hypothetical.

In the Cupcake summit he also said and I quote...

Originally Posted by Matthew Hulsizer

And so I will end up being the owner of this Arena. This team is going to be here forever

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

So if it turns out to be Atl to Winnipeg what do the divisions look like?

Detroit to the East? Nashville to the East?

And if someone from the Central div goes east how does the West realign? Dallas to the Central and Colorado to the Pacific? Colorado to the Pacific? Minnesota to the Central?

As strange as it would be to move a Central time zone team to the East while there are 2 Eastern time zone teams in the West, I think the best alignment would be Nashville to the SE Division; Dallas to the Central; Colorado to the Pacific; and Winnipeg to the NW.

You could do the same but move Columbus to the SE, which would make sense from an East-West perspective, but not a North-South.

Moving Detroit to the East would really screw up the rivalries in the East...Detroit to the NE; Boston to the Atlantic; Pittsburgh to the SE (plus Dallas to the Central; Colorado to the Pacific; and Winnipeg to the NW).

[browna]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

His timing may be wrong, but this is what he's been saying all along would happen. If it does happen, he's batting 1.000.

And given SCH's connections and past history, I trust his word over absolutely every one else's here.

[c.t.ner]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

So if it turns out to be Atl to Winnipeg what do the divisions look like?

Geographically, Columbus moving to the east makes the most sense. There's a good Ohio-Pennsylvania rivalry. You probably don't want to try and fit Columbus in the Atlantic division, but even putting them in the south east, with 8 games against Pitts/Philly would be really good for the Columbus market.

[browna]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

I'm not saying that Winnipeg is a sure fire successful market. The dollar can drop again, the collective bargaining agreement can change, economies change. But if the NHL goes to Winnipeg again and fails again, it likely won't be for the same reasons it failed 15 years ago.

When they left the last time, there were grumblings tickets were too expensive. Well, they've gone up around the league 35-40% in that time. Don't know if the mean wage has gone up the same there.

Winnipeg's arena has 30% less seats than Calgary's, so in a simple economics, to make them as profitable as the Flames, the average ticket price has to be 30% more than here. Ok, so the new team doesn't spend to the cap, but spends 20% less then the Flames, tickets still have to be 10% higher (don't for get Manitoba sales tax on top) to bring in the same revenue/profit as the Flames do.

And thats assuming your expenses are the same, and that you can sell the rink board ads and the TV rights, and the luxury boxes, at the same going rate that Calgary sells theirs for. Luxury boxes would be the big one, at $150K+ per year, per box, or so. Ontop of that, the Flames aren't exactly printing money these days either.

If all those revenue and expense criteria aren't met, the deep pocketed owner is going to be bankrolling fairly large losses losses...that starts to wear on a guy, especially if there's a prime S. Ontario market still available in a couple years, with a brand new arena waiting.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It is hard to see how the 97 million management fee can be seen as anything other than a gift, somewhat inflated from the 2.5 million the contract is worth.

Well people far more versed in the details of the law and the details of this particular transaction have given opinions to the contrary, so it's not really as easy as it seems.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by browna

When they left the last time, there were grumblings tickets were too expensive. Well, they've gone up around the league 35-40% in that time. Don't know if the mean wage has gone up the same there.

Winnipeg's arena has 30% less seats than Calgary's, so in a simple economics, to make them as profitable as the Flames, the average ticket price has to be 30% more than here. Ok, so the new team doesn't spend to the cap, but spends 20% less then the Flames, tickets still have to be 10% higher (don't for get Manitoba sales tax on top) to bring in the same revenue/profit as the Flames do.

And thats assuming your expenses are the same, and that you can sell the rink board ads and the TV rights, and the luxury boxes, at the same going rate that Calgary sells theirs for. Luxury boxes would be the big one, at $150K+ per year, per box, or so. Ontop of that, the Flames aren't exactly printing money these days either.

If all those revenue and expense criteria aren't met, the deep pocketed owner is going to be bankrolling fairly large losses losses...that starts to wear on a guy, especially if there's a prime S. Ontario market still available in a couple years, with a brand new arena waiting.

Can't disagree with your comment about S.Ontario but I do need to disagree with what you say about Winnipeg. According to Forbes in 2010 Phoenix was the worst team in the league for franchise value and was operating a loss of $20MM.

Even with your estimations that Winnipeg can't match Calgary's ability to bring in the dough they'll sure as hell be better than Phoenix and I doubt you would disagree with me there, would you? So if one's faced with the decision to eat another $20MM in losses, or, less in losses (potentially profit too) by moving the team to a destination that is guaranteed to be hockey hungry and sell a crapload of tickets, I'm not sure what the problem is.

Also, to Resolute who can't seem to have a discussion without resorting to petty name calling and over-the-top condescension, 29 owners don't have to agree with Bettman actions and his own ridiculous self-interest and egomaniacal decisions- the NHL owns the Coyotes, so they get to call the shots with the franchise. No? I don't think the owner of St.Louis is calling the owner of Anaheim and telling him what he can and can't do with the franchise he owns, despite the revenue sharing scheme they've constructed. So yeah, Bettman probably does have some kind of bizarre agenda and as Vulcan has pointed out, there have been several examples of this throughout his tenure as commissioner.

The Coyotes are not General Motors. No bailout, thanks. Oh yeah and also, Winnipeg will support their team because the people know what it's like to have lost theirs. I think there is a significant intangible and difficult to prove factor about Winnipeg which, obviously, should be considered in the business decision but does require a leap of faith somewhat.