2011 Canadian Election Thread

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

It's not untrue at all.

The JSF program was a competition between Lockheed Martin and Boeing, but Canada was under no obligation to buy the winning fighter without even looking at other options. This is what I take issue with. Other aircraft manufacturers were not permitted to submit a competitive bid for the replacement to our CF-18s.

Ignoring the fact that other aircraft manufacturers were included in the JSF program from it's inception, the plain statement that there were two manufacturers involved in the program pretty much confirms that there was no 'single sourced no bid contract'.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Ignoring the fact that other aircraft manufacturers were included in the JSF program from it's inception, the plain statement that there were two manufacturers involved in the program pretty much confirms that there was no 'single sourced no bid contract'.

Let's try this again...

The JSF program was an open competition between Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

The program to replace Canada's aging CF-18 fleet was not an open competition. We chose the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) without looking at any other options or allowing competing manufacturers to submit bids.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

It's just not a forged relationship between social democracy and economic ruin. And there are really very few observation points in Canada to conclude as such. NDP in MB and SK have been sound economic managers. In BC it's been more of a mixed bag but the new history on NDP in the 90s is that they weren't nearly as bad as the immediate prognosis made them out to be. THe only good example is Ontario. But then is that not the exeption that proves the rule?

Sound economic managers?

Is this the same MB and SK that were 'have not' provinces?

Is this the same MB and SK that had people leave year after year because there was no opportunity for anyone?

SK finally has a leader and party that want to expand business.. and look at that they are a 'have' province and people want to live there.

but yeah... the NDP was good for the province.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Our forces absolutely need replacement fighters in the next 5-10 years, but I'm not convinced buying the best and most expensive option available to us makes sense (on a single-sourced no-bid contract at that!). Harper seems hell-bent on buying the F-35 when our defense needs might be just as capably met with a more modest option (like the Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, etc.). Unless we have an open competition with multiple bidders and evaluate all options on a combination of mission capabilities and price, we'll never know for sure that Canadian tax payers are getting the best value for their money on our new fighter purchase.

And does ANYONE still believe Harper's claim that the program will cost $75 million per plane?

The Super Hornet is an excellent aircraft, however it does have a 55 million dollar per price tag, we would have to go through a similar retraining program, buy all new parts, its nowhere similar to the CF-18, and its not near capable to the F-36, which we have to look at since we're cutting our number of plans in half. If we do that then you have to maximize the kill ration of the planes and pilots. There would be no benefits to Canadian aviation

The Eurofighter has a cost of 90 million euro's per plane and is not as capable as the F-35. Its a completely different airframe again, there would be no economic benefits to the Canadian aviation industry.

The Giphen is an extremely poor comparison and sits at between 40 and 60 million euro's per unit. Again there would be a massive changover for pilots and technology and there would be no benefits to Canadian aerospace.

And while I'm not sure about the F-35's 75 million per unit price tag, I'm also not convinced that the figures out of the BPO are in any way accurate either. I still think that the F-35 is the plane to get, I'm still convinced that when you partner up on a project like this you'd damn sure better purchase the product.

I'll also say that I think in a bid situation, unless your going on sticker price alone, the F-35 is the best jet for us.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

It's not like you and the rest of the province wasn't warned about climate change Cowboy89 and the need to reign in development of the oil sands. We'll be forced to anyway investing so heavily in an unsustainable industry was always risky.

Guess there is no hope for Ontario, with all of the manufacturing going to China and other third world countries. Why reinvest in such unsustainable industries?

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Let's try this again...

The JSF program was an open competition between Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

The program to replace Canada's aging CF-18 fleet was not an open competition. We chose the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) without looking at any other options or allowing competing manufacturers to submit bids.

And the Joint Strike Fighter was based on an open competition to allow competing manufacturers to replace existing fleets.

And it, itself, was an open competition between two manufacturers.

[Ark2]

To CC, I just want to say thanks for providing insight on this fighter jet matter, as it seems everyone else (myself included) is just regurgitating sound bites from whichever political leader they side with.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You really think domestic policy has nothing to do with the stagnant or declining purchasing power of the middle class?

If anything one of the solutions to the problem you describe is more investment in post-secondary. If we cannot compete with manufacturers overseas then we find a better advantage. Information economy services, the like, they all require educated people to perform those tasks. THe more educated from more university access could be very good economic policy.

Countries in Europe have done just that. Look at how small Norway and others are leaders in software. Why can't Canada be?

Investing in University doesn't create jobs in itself. Last time I checked the huge number of social science degrees graduated in North America aren't creating much except large debts.

Businesses create jobs. We should create an environment for business to succeed.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

And the Joint Strike Fighter was based on an open competition to allow competing manufacturers to replace existing fleets.

And it, itself, was an open competition between two manufacturers.

/facepalm

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Investing in University doesn't create jobs in itself. Last time I checked the huge number of social science degrees graduated in North America aren't creating much except large debts.

Businesses create jobs. We should create an environment for business to succeed.

sigh

*whoosh*

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

It's not untrue at all.

The JSF program was a competition between Lockheed Martin and Boeing, but Canada was under no obligation to buy the winning fighter without even looking at other options. This is what I take issue with. Other aircraft manufacturers were not permitted to submit a competitive bid for the replacement to our CF-18s.

I'm generally all in favour of a competition, but bottom line is that no other 5th generation fighter is even on the market, except the F-22 which the Americans won't sell.

We are buying jets that we'll operate for the next 30 years, I don't see any sense in buying something that will be soon obsolete to save about three-fifty.

[peter12]

Put properly against the opinions of CC, how can anyone argue that the "jets" issue is just more politicking, and weak politicking at that. No reasonable Canadian gives a crap about the CF-18 replacement bidding process.

This is why the Liberals have totally lost on this issue.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Our forces absolutely need replacement fighters in the next 5-10 years, but I'm not convinced buying the best and most expensive option available to us makes sense (on a single-sourced no-bid contract at that!). Harper seems hell-bent on buying the F-35 when our defense needs might be just as capably met with a more modest option (like the Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, etc.). Unless we have an open competition with multiple bidders and evaluate all options on a combination of mission capabilities and price, we'll never know for sure that Canadian tax payers are getting the best value for their money on our new fighter purchase.

And does ANYONE still believe Harper's claim that the program will cost $75 million per plane?

Wasn't the order a multi-national one that Canada jumped on board with?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10667633

The planes will be the fifth generation of Joint Strike Fighters. Canada has worked with the US on the development of these fighter planes for over a decade.

Emphasis mine. Obviously this isn't something that was just cooked up in the past year.

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collectio.../prb0207-e.htm
(Doc from 2002)

Canada’s participation began in 1997, when it gained the status of informed partner upon making a US$10 million commitment to Phase 1, the Concept Demonstration Phase. Unlike the United Kingdom, Canada did not announce plans to buy the JSF since its CF-18s are expected to remain in service until about 2017. Indeed, the radars and other systems of the CF-18s are currently being modernized to ensure that the aircraft can effectively carry out operations for another decade.

Development of these planes started under Chretien, and only now is the commitment to buy them. Obviously there are still options, but let's make sure to know that this wasn't a whim decision.

http://www.acus.org/natosource/canad...h-fighter-jets

The purchase will reportedly occur in tandem with plans by the US government to buy 2,443 Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II jets.
...
The Netherlands, Italy, Turkey, Denmark, Norway, and Australia are also partners in the fifth generation F-35 program, and Mackay said: "A large number of our allies are moving to purchase this same aircraft."

Volume discount?

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by peter12

Put properly against the opinions of CC, how can anyone argue that the "jets" issue is just more politicking, and weak politicking at that. No reasonable Canadian gives a crap about the CF-18 replacement bidding process.

This is why the Liberals have totally lost on this issue.

Plus Canadians remember the Liberal's EH-101 cancellation fiasco, the Victoria class submarine dithering disaster and a long list of other defence related failures.

Also, the Liberals were in government when Canada took the first steps with respect to committing to the F-35 program. They have pretty much zero credibility on this issue.

[Sr. Mints]

Jack Layton's a Trekkie. Link



http://www.flickr.com/photos/scotteh/2939330287/

[CaptainCrunch]

Canada’s participation began in 1997, when it gained the status of informed partner upon making a US$10 million commitment to Phase 1, the Concept Demonstration Phase. Unlike the United Kingdom, Canada did not announce plans to buy the JSF since its CF-18s are expected to remain in service until about 2017. Indeed, the radars and other systems of the CF-18s are currently being modernized to ensure that the aircraft can effectively carry out operations for another decade.

Its great to modernize the radar and avionics systems on the CF-18, and they've done a amazing job of doing it. But there's just no more capability to be pulled out of the jet.

I was also reading a study that downtime on the F-18 and Maintenance Hours/Flying Hours is dramatically increasing due to wear on the airframe, control surfaces and engines.

The finalization of the F35 is 5 years down the road which puts it at 2015, that means that the time for open bidding is over unless you want to start seeing rust out on our airforce equivalent to the dangerous flying conditions that the Liberal government exposed our helicopter pilots to by extending the life of our search and rescue and navy helicopters due to Chretiens vindictive cancellation of the EH-101 contract.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Plus Canadians remember the Liberal's EH-101 cancellation fiasco, the Victoria class submarine dithering disaster and a long list of other defence related failures.

Also, the Liberals were in government when Canada took the first steps with respect to committing to the F-35 program. They have pretty much zero credibility on this issue.

Actually, I might kill my credibility but I was ok with the Victoria class/Upholder purchase at the time. The British Upholders were a very good diesel boat, the government screwed the time line and transfer processes up badly though.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I don't agree with much of the NDP platform, particularly when it comes to the economy and fiscal responsibility, but applying blanket labels like "stupid" to their supporters isn't helpful for our political discourse. The same is true for Conservative, Liberal, and Bloc voters. Everyone has a reason for choosing one party/candidate over another; just because it's not a reason you agree with doesn't make them stupid.

Unless we're discussing Sarah Palin, in which case her supporters really are that stupid.

Sorry, anyone who votes for a $50B spending spree without much of an explanation on how to pay for it is fataing stupid.

[Flamenspiel]

Hmm, did anyone on this board live in Ontario when the NDP took over in the early nineties? Health care costs were cut by reducing the number of doctors graduating from medical school! they quadrupled the debt in four years and white males were banned from applying for government jobs in Ontario. This is just a sample of the fiasco that was heaped on the people of that province.

While there are issues with the liberals and the tories are far from perfect, I think a reality check is needed when it comes to even considering the NDP, they are an effective protest party with no idea how to govern!

Lets remember that if you make more then 50K, the NDP considers you rich, so in Calgary, be prepared for your taxes to go up!

[Frequitude]

It also doesn't help that the NDP has completely taken over CP's ad banners.