The Ongoing Coyotes Sale Thread

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by MacGruber

There is no BS canadian angle. Every message board across Canada for hockey is vastly in favour. Just the local hate club here on CP seems to think they know better than billionaire business men willing to use their own money, unlike MH.

That's not true at all. HFboards is against the move as well. CDC is against it.

Honestly those are the biggest boards that I know so maybe I'm missing other ones, but which ones are vastly in favor?

[moon]

Originally Posted by puckluck

That's not true at all. HFboards is against the move as well. CDC is against it.

Honestly those are the biggest boards that I know so maybe I'm missing other ones, but which ones are vastly in favor?

jetsowner.com

[MacGruber]

CDC is not against it. Lol

[Joborule]

As been noted several times over the past year and more, the anti-Winnipeg crowd (at least a great majority of it I imagine) isn't against the team coming back because we dislike Winnipeg. I would love to see more Canadian teams, especially a return of the Jets and Nordiques. But I don't want to see it return just for the sake of return and ignore the great economic obstacles against it. If it's gonna return, I want it to return for the long term. Not for a short term stop gap which it currently is. Several years is a realistic life span unless the team goes deep into the playoffs each and every year or they somehow build a new arena that can match the rest of the NHL in capacity. That just isn't gonna happen. So we're gonna be going through this drama all over again in the near future.

The only reason Winnipeg is getting any consideration is because no other city seems on deck on the moment to take on a club if the Phoenix relocation goes ahead. You would figure KC would be an easy base walk for the NHL if they have to go to 'Plan B', but no owner there or anywhere else, makes Winnipeg the only option for the time being it appears.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by moon

Which billionaire business men are those? There is one possible billionaire involved and that is Thompson and there is a lot of talk out there that he is really interested in the TO market and sees this as an opportunity to get his foot in the door and move the team when it fails to make money.

There is a BS Canadian angle as it makes no sense to support a market or team just because it is from Canada. It is a made sentiment that makes 0 sense at all. Especially when said market is a have-not in the current NHL model.

that's a fair argument, especially considering the fact that Winnipeg did lose the franchise previously.

the problem is market saturation in the states - honestly, what cities out there could support an NHL team? Let's not muddy the waters with discussion of media share either (phx's media share hasn't done squat against its losses).

who else is there? Portland? Seattle? KC? that's really it, and the time window is shrinking rapidly non of those 3 are going to be able to get anything together in time for 2012. Its Winnipeg or Bust (PHX) at this point...

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Joborule

But I don't want to see it return just for the sake of return and ignore the great economic obstacles against it.

The biggest economic issues that caused the team to leave last time no longer exist.

1. There is an owner willing to buy the team with their own money and operate the team in Winnipeg, in TNSE.
2. There is a new arena. Previously, the Winnipeg Arena needed to be replaced and there was nothing in sight.
3. TNSE own the arena. No more Winnipeg Enterprises taking all the revenues.
4. The Canadian dollar is at/above par with the US dollar.


With one of the best attendance records in the AHL (and even previously in the IHL days), Winnipeg has shown they will support a team and that they deserve a chance at supporting an NHL franchise again. Sure, prices are more expensive. People will pay for a better product.


I should mention that - back when the Coyotes were first put into bankruptcy, I was not a believer that Winnipeg could support a team. Not even a little. As far as I was concerned, Hamilton was probably the next destination. But the truth of the matter is there's willing ownership in Winnipeg that hasn't burned its bridges with the NHL. And with the other economic factors having been taken care of, it's a viable market. Period.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MacGruber

There is no BS canadian angle. Every message board across Canada for hockey is vastly in favour. Just the local hate club here on CP seems to think they know better than billionaire business men willing to use their own money, unlike MH.

There's no Canadian angle, and yet the the thing you reference is Canadian message boards. Denying that there's a nationalism element to this is absurd.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

The biggest economic issues that caused the team to leave last time no longer exist.

Feel free to go back through the archives. The economic challenges Winnipeg will face has been argued repeatedly, and as of yet, I've not seen any real rebuttals to the issues raised.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by moon

I don't remember Francis saying that it would cost the Flames and Oilers millions of dollars just that they would have issues with the Jets coming back, so not sure how I am changing the argument at all.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/04/23/winnipeg-unwelcome

Originally Posted by Some tool who's mommy got him a job

After all, it would cost both clubs millions of dollars in TV revenue by virtue of their local broadcast rights with Sportsnet West, which extends into Manitoba.
Merchandise sales would also take a hit for both Alberta clubs, but that could be mitigated by the benefit of renewing another Canadian rivalry with both teams.

[moon]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

2. There is a new arena. Previously, the Winnipeg Arena needed to be replaced and there was nothing in sight.

The new arena with too few seats and way too few luxury boxes. Sounds like a real economic money maker.

But that's right the tiny arena is great because it keeps demand high.

That is why we see so many new arenas in pro sports being built with much less seating and especially with barely any of those pesky money-making luxury boxes.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/04/23/winnipeg-unwelcome

Didn't see that article and don't remember him talking about specific numbers.

I don't know enough about the deal with Sportsnet to comment on the financial aspect of it I was just agreeing with Francis that having the Jets come into the Sportsnet channel would suck for the Flames and Oilers and the so called rivalry that is created does nothing to offset that.

[Resolute 14]

The games are still on TV, so really, I'm not seeing the kind of negative impact Francis is inventing.

Doubly so since it is only assumed that the Jets would end up on RSN. Among other things, Shaw is contemplating launching a sports network of their own, and TSN might choose to bid on rights.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The games are still on TV, so really, I'm not seeing the kind of negative impact Francis is inventing.

Doubly so since it is only assumed that the Jets would end up on RSN. Among other things, Shaw is contemplating launching a sports network of their own, and TSN might choose to bid on rights.

The Oilers and Flames TV contracts have specific channel agreements in there. I don't know the exact breakdown but Sportsnet can't move more than X games in the package over to Sportsnet Flames or Sportsnet Oilers.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

If GWI's case is as porous as you make it out to be, why doesn't Glendale and Hulsizer simply sue them or call their bluff?

The two major levers that GWI says they have are the gifts: 1) the parking that GWI contends is already the property of Glendale and 2) the sole sourced operations management fee (that many contend is over valued, or at minimum should have been competitively bid).

From your posts, it sounds like GWI does not have a case...and yet here we are, with nothing moving forward...obviously GWI is going to oppose anything that they see as being a corporate handout.

The only documents Goldwater has right now is whatever Glendale has given them or whatever is public. In turn, Goldwater's argument is that the documents do not prove Glendale's lack of ownership of parking rights. Goldwater says the documents argue the opposite, which is an opinion and not a fact.

Glendale and the NHL would argue the opposite.

Parking rights were assigned in the original MUDA - Mixed Use Development Agreement - to originally build up the area, dated 2001 and transferred from Larry Elman to Jerry Moyes in 2006. The document is here:

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/phoenixcoyo...488_1159_2.pdf

Parking rights in this case have no term and do not die with an arena lease, therefore did not die with the lease in bankruptcy court.

The NHL was allowed to select, in bankruptcy court, what properties and agreements it wanted to bring along with it out of bankruptcy.

Specifically:

the NHL Asset Purchase Agreement Schedules, which includes the parking rights without term:

1.1(e) Permitted Encumbrances
Common Operation and Reciprocal Easement Agreement for the Entertainment District at Westgate, made as of the February 15, 2006, by Entertainment Center Development, LLC and Coyote Center Development, LLC.

AND, part of the list of exclusions, things it did not want, includes the Moyes Arena Management Agreement, where the parking rights as a property had been placed for Jerry Moyes:

2.2(ii) Excluded Team Contracts
AMULA Undertaking and Indemnification Agreement, dated as of September 25, 2006, by Coyotes Hockey, LLC and Coyotes Holdings, LLC for the benefit of Coyote Center Development, LLC and Glendale-101 Development, LLC.

Ergo, the NHL secured the document securing parking rights while walking away from the Arena Management agreement. The NHL has them now and will transfer them to Hulsizer who will then sell them to Glendale.

Further, the NHL Asset Purchase Agreement (APA), 2.14 b:

At any time prior to the rejection of any Glendale Contract (but not later than June 30, 2010), the Buyers may elect to assume such Glendale Contract. In the event the Buyers have elected to assume a Glendale Contract, such Glendale Contract shall be treated as an Added Contract in accordance with Section 2.9(b) and thereafter shall be deemed an Assumed Contract.

And the Glendale contracts:

1. Partition and Sale Agreement, dated as of September 1. 25, 2006, by and among Arizona
Hockey Management, Inc., Arena Management Group, LLC, Arena Management
Holdings, LLC, Arena Development, LLC, Center Ice Holdings, LLC, Coyote Center
Development, LLC, Coyotes Hockey, LLC, Coyotes Holdings, LLC, E-Arena Holdings,
LLC, Ellman Holdings, Inc., Glendale-101 Development, LLC, Jerry Moyes, Coyotes
Holdings MemberCo, LLC, 101 Holdings, LLC, Steven M. Ellman, SUB Investments,
LLC, Jerry and Vickie Moyes Family Trust, Westgate Investments, LLC and Westgate
Signage, LLC.

2. Amended and Restated Agreement in Respect of Parking and Mixed-Use Development
Agreement, dated as of July 1, 2008, by and among Coyote Center Development, LLC,
Glendale-101 Development, LLC, Arena Development, LLC, Westgate Investments,
LLC, Coyotes Hockey, LLC and Arena Management Group, LLC.

3. Agreement for the Replacement of Temporary Parking, dated as of July 1, 2008, by and
among City of Glendale, Coyote Center Development, LLC, Glendale Garage LLC,
Coyotes Hockey, LLC and Arena Management Group, LLC.

4. Declaration of Easements, dated as of September 25, 2006, by and among Coyote Center
Development, LLC, Coyotes Hockey, LLC and Arena Management Group, LLC.

5. Master Declaration of Easements, Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions for Westgate,
dated as of January 30, 2006, by Coyote Center Development, LLC and Entertainment
Center Development, LLC, to the extent a Seller is a beneficiary thereof.

6. Common Operation and Reciprocal Easement Agreement for the Entertainment District at
Westgate, dated as of February 15, 2006, by Coyote Center Development, LLC and
Entertainment Center Development, LLC, to the extent a Seller is a beneficiary thereof.

7. Common Operation and Reciprocal Easement Agreement for the Village Retail District at
Westgate, dated as of February 15, 2006, by Coyote Center Development, LLC, to the
extent a Seller is a beneficiary thereof.


All of that is public. Goldwater has access.

As fiduciaries, Glendale council members know it is prudent to have backups to their decisions and, if memory serves, it has four separate legal opinions that it is on the right side of the law which would help cover council members from future liability if they are selling air for $100 million.

Whether or not the rights are worth $100 million is a legitimate debate although a subjective one.

The city does have an opinion they are in the ballpark and one other opinion stating the value is too high. They also have a Standard & Poors opinion that the deal is fairly normally rated.

Goldwater can't really prove the parking rights are worth more or less than $100 million in the future. They are arguing that 26 or 30 years from now that might be the case.

We can probably agree Glendale hasn't argued its case effectively in public. Maybe they don't want to explain why something has $100 million in value today when they gave it away in 2001.

Goldwater knows that time is an issue here. Glendale knows that time is an issue as well. Glendale cannot be wrapped up in an interminable lawsuit since, even if it wins, it would lose. So its a game of chicken.

Goldwater is mostly blowing smoke but that's all its needed to do to this point.

In the background, the NHL and Glendale will be restructuring the $100 million component in a way Goldwater can't influence it.

And that is where we are right now.

Cowperson

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by MacGruber

All this anti Winnipeg sentiment on this board is pretty exclusive for Canadian team message boards and perplexing, frankly.

Actually there isn't a whole lot of actual 'anti Winnipeg' sentiment here. Just many posters who have a more realistic perspective of the obstacles a team operating in Winnipeg would face.

The shots against the city of Winnipeg is not anti-Winnipeg Jets sentiment.

Not everyone is going to agree with Winnipeg supporters. Get used to it.

I've got more news for you, if Winnipeg succeeds in getting a club, most posters on this forum are going to hate the Jets. Are Jets fans going to whine about that too?

Winnipeg doesn't even have a team yet and already their fans seem to have a larger sense of 'entitlement' than Canuck fans.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Feel free to go back through the archives. The economic challenges Winnipeg will face has been argued repeatedly, and as of yet, I've not seen any real rebuttals to the issues raised.

The biggest hurdle, the one that Phoenix is now losing their team because of, is taken care of in Winnipeg - willing ownership with their own money. And that, from a fan perspective, is all that matters. That ownership group wouldn't be present if they didn't believe they've got the rest of the issues addressed... Or they'd be asking the city to buy the team for them. ;-p

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I've got more news for you, if Winnipeg succeeds in getting a club, most posters on this forum are going to hate the Jets. Are Jets fans going to whine about that too?

We'll hate the Jets as rivals. That's fine. Aside from Bouw n Arrow and that clueless lvsteven troll, no one is going to hate them for existing. There's a big difference there.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Actually there isn't a whole lot of actual 'anti Winnipeg' sentiment here. Just many posters who have a more realistic perspective of the obstacles a team operating in Winnipeg would face.

The shots against the city of Winnipeg is not anti-Winnipeg Jets sentiment.

Not everyone is going to agree with Winnipeg supporters. Get used to it.

I've got more news for you, if Winnipeg succeeds in getting a club, most posters on this forum are going to hate the Jets. Are Jets fans going to whine about that too?

I'm a little confused by your post.

First you say there is no anti-Jets sentiment but your last statement says that lots of Calgary fans hate the Jets?

While some people in this thread talk about realistic hurdles in Winnipeg in terms of ownership and feasibility, others hate the Jets the same way they hate the Oilers or Canucks and aren't using any logic when talking about how Winnipeg is a hellhole and that the team will fail.

It will be tough for the Jets to succeed in Winterpeg. Least attractive FA market in the NHL, small-ish arena, not a rich city by any means. On the other hands it'll be a rabid hockey market, add a great rivalry for the Flames and give us another Canadian team and stop the Coyotes from losing $30m a season. It really is a toss-up IMO.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Actually there isn't a whole lot of actual 'anti Winnipeg' sentiment here. Just many posters who have a more realistic perspective of the obstacles a team operating in Winnipeg would face.

The shots against the city of Winnipeg is not anti-Winnipeg Jets sentiment.

Not everyone is going to agree with Winnipeg supporters. Get used to it.

I've got more news for you, if Winnipeg succeeds in getting a club, most posters on this forum are going to hate the Jets. Are Jets fans going to whine about that too?

Personally I doubt average fan and Media have a clue in regards to Winnipeg.

I would have to assume Bettman and Company has done due dilgence in regards to Winnipeg and if they are viable.

On the Reverse side, Coyotes have never made a profit.... That has to end at some point.....

Hopefullly this saga ends asap.....

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I'm a little confused by your post.

First you say there is no anti-Jets sentiment but your last statement says that lots of Calgary fans hate the Jets?

I suspect you're confused because of some reading comprehension issue. I didn't say "lots of Calgary fans hate the Jets".

I wrote "if Winnipeg succeeds in getting a club, most posters on this forum are going to hate the Jets".

Can you understand the difference?

[flambers]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I suspect you're confused because of some reading comprehension issue. I didn't say "lots of Calgary fans hate the Jets".

I wrote "if Winnipeg succeeds in getting a club, most posters on this forum are going to hate the Jets".

Can you understand the difference?

Of course Flames fans will hate the Jets... I remember really hating them back in the day.

However its a good thing for fans to have teams they hate....
Will make the games fun to watch.