Going back to what I had posted earlier, how can Layton say that he is fighting for Canadians to keep their jobs, while at the same time condemning the Conservatives for bailing out the auto-manufacturers? It just doesn't make any sense. I've come to the conclusion that those who support the NDP must live in la-la land where pesky things like logic need not apply.
Bang for the buck. If other countries are getting better care for a similar price (and many are), Canada should seek to emulate that.
Again, better in term of what? Average outcome? Life expectancy? Medical innovation?
There are many ways to measure what 'better' is. If you are a homeless person, clearly Canada is a great place to live. If you are middle upper class with a rare life threatening condition, clearly the US would be a much better choice.
Quote:
How many people in Canada die on waiting lists? And what is the net benefit of the United States paying double in health care costs?
Thats a statistic that, sadly, is not measured in Canada (and likely for good reason, wouldn't want to upset the masses). We do know Canada has some of the longest waiting lists in the world. Especially for non-critical life enhacement surgeries like Knee/Hip replacements, I bet most people can name several friends who have waited for a year or longer for such surgeries. Sure they don't die, but what's a year or two of increased life expectancy worth to someone, especially later in their life?
Thanks goodness we've seen some movement towards private delivery of these operations.
Quote:
And many Americans travel abroad for affordable health care. I don't think that suggests that India, Thailand, or Latin America have medical systems that should be emulated.
Cosmetic surgeries maybe? I have never heard of Americans leaving their home country for Cancer treatment, diagnostic imaging, or family doctors which are the most common reasons for canadians to leave home IMHO.
Quote:
I agree, and that's something that should be explored. Though medical practices are already private entities, with only hospitals being wholly public, so Canada already has plenty of private delivery.
I don't think that's the case at all; and we are all aware that the Supreme court came within one vote of striking down the Canada Health Act as totally unconstitutional (3/7 voted in favor in 1995)... and famously ruled that 'access to a waiting list is not access to health care', prompting the quick deregulation of some more services. Yet, we are almost at that point again where waiting to die or degenerate even further is just the best Canada can offer many people....
Going back to what I had posted earlier, how can Layton say that he is fighting for Canadians to keep their jobs, while at the same time condemning the Conservatives for bailing out the auto-manufacturers? It just doesn't make any sense. I've come to the conclusion that those who support the NDP must live in la-la land where pesky things like logic need not apply.
Looks like it's a coalition if there isn't a Harper Majority!
Quote:
Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff said he would follow parliamentary rules and be willing to try and form a government if Stephen Harper wins the most seats but fails to win the confidence of the House of Commons.
"If the governor general wants to call on other parties, or myself, for example, to form a government, then we try to form a government," Ignatieff told CBC's Peter Mansbridge in an exclusive interview Tuesday afternoon.
If anyone wants to see journalism at its finest, click this link and watch the video. Peter Mansbridge interviews Iggnatieff and he doesn't use the kiddie gloves. Asks tough questions and doesn't let Iggnatieff skirt around the questions. Mansbridge is one of Canada's finest.
Again, better in term of what? Average outcome? Life expectancy? Medical innovation?
There are many ways to measure what 'better' is. If you are a homeless person, clearly Canada is a great place to live. If you are middle upper class with a rare life threatening condition, clearly the US would be a much better choice.
I agree, there are a myriad of ways to measure a health care system's effectiveness. Basically, if other countries can overcome the problems Canada currently faces (long wait lists, overcrowding, etc.) while maintaining high survival rates of various diseases among the population and while coming in at a similar cost, then Canada should strive to match that.
Quote:
Thats a statistic that, sadly, is not measured in Canada (and likely for good reason, wouldn't want to upset the masses). We do know Canada has some of the longest waiting lists in the world. Especially for non-critical life enhacement surgeries like Knee/Hip replacements, I bet most people can name several friends who have waited for a year or longer for such surgeries. Sure they don't die, but what's a year or two of increased life expectancy worth to someone, especially later in their life?
Thanks goodness we've seen some movement towards private delivery of these operations.
Do you have any evidence of anyone dying on wait lists in Canada?
Yes people get stuck on lists for some surgeries and that's something that must be addressed. I'm only taking issue with the notion that people are dying on wait lists which is what you said. I've never seen any data to support this and I've never run into anecdotal evidence in my personal life. In every single instance in which a friend, relative, or anyone I've known has had a potentially life threatening condition they were treated immediately.
Quote:
Cosmetic surgeries maybe? I have never heard of Americans leaving their home country for Cancer treatment, diagnostic imaging, or family doctors which are the most common reasons for canadians to leave home IMHO.
It's not just cosmetic stuff. Tens of thousands (some estimates have it as hundreds of thousands) of uninsured or under insured Americans go overseas for things like joint replacements, heart bypasses, etc. every year.
Quote:
I don't think that's the case at all; and we are all aware that the Supreme court came within one vote of striking down the Canada Health Act as totally unconstitutional (3/7 voted in favor in 1995)... and famously ruled that 'access to a waiting list is not access to health care', prompting the quick deregulation of some more services. Yet, we are almost at that point again where waiting to die or degenerate even further is just the best Canada can offer many people....
What's not the case? Most medical practices in Canada (family doctors, specialists not working in a hospital, medical labs, etc.) are privately run. They're independent entities and they bill the government. In total, roughly 75% of health care services in Canada are delivered privately.
Looks like it's a coalition if there isn't a Harper Majority!
A complete 180 from what he said at the beginning of the campaign...what a surprise. Ignatieff is nothing less than a doppelganger and at worst...a complete and utter liar.
He can sugar coat it any way he likes, but he just jumped into bed with the seperatists.
I now firmly hope the Liberals get crushed completely with this admission...like the PC did after Mulroney. I was hoping that the Lib and the CPC could find some common ground to sit together, but this trumps everything.
Time for Harper to start playing politics then and approach Layton with a deal that if he doesnt get his majority, then Layton and maybe one other dipper gets a portfolio or a high ranking committee seat, and they agree to no new elections for at least 3 years while giving in to a couple of dipper demands that dont cripple the country fiscally.
A complete 180 from what he said at the beginning of the campaign...what a surprise. Ignatieff is nothing less than a doppelganger and at worst...a complete and utter liar.
He can sugar coat it any way he likes, but he just jumped into bed with the seperatists.
I now firmly hope the Liberals get crushed completely with this admission...like the PC did after Mulroney. I was hoping that the Lib and the CPC could find some common ground to sit together, but this trumps everything.
Time for Harper to start playing politics then and approach Layton with a deal that if he doesnt get his majority, then Layton and maybe one other dipper gets a portfolio or a high ranking committee seat, and they agree to no new elections for at least 3 years while giving in to a couple of dipper demands that dont cripple the country fiscally.
The only way that this can work is if Harper wins more seats then the Liberal's and NDP combined, that would then force Ignatieff and Layton to get into bed with the seperatists which while not an ideal solution, would pretty much ensure doom for the Libs and Dippers in the next election.
I've privately through that a minority conservative government would last days in this environment, and there would be a non confidence vote when the Cons table their budget.
I think this is an incredibly stupid move by Ignatieff, and it makes him look untrustworthy. He's basically saying that no matter what the Conservatives do, I'm toppling the government and taking over.
When they were doing an analysis this morning on the news they talked about the fatique factor setting in and this is where you get the foot in mouth mistake that costs you heavily.
I think this is Ignatieff's foot and mouth.
First of all if you look at the leadership numbers, Ignatieff is near the bottom.
The polls haven't changed much since the opening day of the election.
Then Ignatieff comes out with this statement.
This is a dumb move,
By tommorrow, the Coalition speak will be effectively on the table, the conservatives will now gun for Ignatieff on his trustworthiness.
If Layton was smart, he'd seperate himself from the Libs and attack Ignatieff on this.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
Exp:
Quote:
The only way that this can work is if Harper wins more seats then the Liberal's and NDP combined, that would then force Ignatieff and Layton to get into bed with the seperatists which while not an ideal solution, would pretty much ensure doom for the Libs and Dippers in the next election
At this point, that isnt even in question though....unless something REALLY dramatic changes.
Quote:
Translated: "I'm not going to form a coalition, I am just going to form a coalition".
yep....I wonder if there will be enough backlash from this that sends the undecided running to the CPC to avoid such a scenario. The double-speak in that interview was taken to a new level...wow. Clearly the Liberals are in desperation mode.
That was my point, Calgary's not really that conservative. We're fine with tax and spend. So long as we're recieving the spending on priorities we care about as much as we're getting taxed.
Then why would they vote for the Conservatives? How have they treated Alberta better?
__________________
“Such suburban models are being rationalized as ‘what people want,’ when in fact they are simply what is most expedient to produce. The truth is that what people want is a decent place to live, not just a suburban version of a decent place to live.”
The only way that this can work is if Harper wins more seats then the Liberal's and NDP combined, that would then force Ignatieff and Layton to get into bed with the seperatists which while not an ideal solution, would pretty much ensure doom for the Libs and Dippers in the next election.
Doesn't matter either way. Unless Liberal + NDP = majority, he has to either work with the Conservatives (unlikely) or the separatists. No matter what, Ignatieff just admitted his party intends to get back in bed with Duceppe.
Quote:
I've privately through that a minority conservative government would last days in this environment, and there would be a non confidence vote when the Cons table their budget.
I think this is an incredibly stupid move by Ignatieff, and it makes him look untrustworthy. He's basically saying that no matter what the Conservatives do, I'm toppling the government and taking over.
...
By tommorrow, the Coalition speak will be effectively on the table, the conservatives will now gun for Ignatieff on his trustworthiness.
If Layton was smart, he'd seperate himself from the Libs and attack Ignatieff on this.
Agreed on both fronts. If Harper and Layton are on their game, Ignatieff is going to get raked. It plays right into the early Conservative commercials suggesting that Ignatieff came back for power, not for the people.
Then why would they vote for the Conservatives? How have they treated Alberta better?
Well for one thing, they aren't going out of their way to paint Alberta as the nation's sacrificial lamb to pay for Ontario and Quebec.
Cowboy is right. Alberta, for all of its redneck stereotype, has been dominated for years by immigration from Eastern Canada and other countries, most of which are more likely to have a liberal mindset than conservative. But the Tories always dominate this province because the Liberals refuse to cultivate support in this province. Instead they treat it with disdain, and that registers with people.
Ok, so if Harper doesn't get a majority and fails to win the confidence of the house what are you all hoping takes place exactly? Another election?
At these numbers and projected seat totals him not having the confidence of the house means that none of the other three parties are going along with him. It's not a pure Liberal ploy here.
Doesn't matter either way. Unless Liberal + NDP = majority, he has to either work with the Conservatives (unlikely) or the separatists. No matter what, Ignatieff just admitted his party intends to get back in bed with Duceppe.
There's no way that the Conservatives would work with the Liberals under those conditions, there is currently a real hatred between the two leaders and the two parties.
I would think that there's a better relationship between Layton and Harper.
If there's a coaltion government coming, then the best strategy point for the Conservatives is that they win more seats then the Libs and Dips combined forcing them to get into bed with the seperatists.
Its funny but Ignatieff to me continues to assault Harper on his lack of love for democracy, but Ignatieff seems to fold to the non democratic line more often. First with making back room deals to be acclaimed as the Liberal leader and now this.
Like I've said, this opens things way up to the Conservatives to attack Ignatieff in terms of his integrity and his democratic stance. The last two weeks of this election is going to be a knife fight now, and its going to be nasty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14
Agreed on both fronts. If Harper and Layton are on their game, Ignatieff is going to get raked. It plays right into the early Conservative commercials suggesting that Ignatieff came back for power, not for the people.
The best thing that Layton could do is laugh at Ignatieff and tell him publically that he's not interested in a arrangement that needs the bloc to survive. Layton has made some nice inroads in Quebec, so I'm not sure if his best strategy is to work with the Bloc.
I don't know who Ignatieff's strategist is, but this to me was an incredibly stupid thing to say.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Ignatieff is nothing less than a doppelganger and at worst...a complete and utter liar.
