More police brutality

[Flabbibulin]

All I can say is that the dangerous effects of taser use on the heart, in susceptible individuals anyways, is not exactly a contentious issue in the medical field. As much as taser manufacturers may try to disprove this, a 10 second taser jolt can be extremely dangerous in some individuals.

The part up for debate is whether taser use should be abandoned because of the small number of individuals that may be at risk.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

Why exactly is Macgruber allowed to come back to CP under another username and continue his anti-police BS that he always spews?

Don't forget the Kipper bashing. You'd think someone would make it a lot less obvious.

[metallicat]

The freaking autopsy report was already posted in this thread.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

No, it is not completely false.

Many autopsy reports dealing with taser deaths are inconclusive because it is difficult to trace a lethal arrhythmia after the heart has stopped beating. In fact, this is the case in most deaths that are caused by an arrhythmia (taser induced or not)... which is why the cause of death for scores of people that died from heart arrhythmias is listed as "natural causes", but that's beside the point. I'm not sure if you will ever see a death certificate that cites "ventricular fibrillation" as the cause of death.

The association between dangerous arrhythmia's and tasers is not a new one, and evidence has been mounting for some time that taser use is dangerous specifically for this reason.

**HONEST QUESTION ALERT**

What percentage of the people who have died from being Tased have tox screens which come back with a large amount of alcohol and/or narcotics? It seems that the person is always hopped up on something. If they'd have had a clean bloodstream do you think the Taser would have killed them? Or is that too inclusive also?

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Guys this thread is getting side tracked, it's not about whether the use of tazers is lethal force and therefore should be banned, it's about whether or not cops are being ######bags and acting inappropriately.

I think it's fair to say that the effect on tazers causing death is inconclusive bordering on the side that they do not (since it's not stated in the autopsy of the one piece of evidence submitted in the thread).

How about rather than saying "yes they cause deaths" or "no they don't you're an idiot" or "he's a doctor" or "so am I, wtf" how about linking to a study that supports your argument?

C'mon seriously this is Calgary Puck, not some random message board, I expect a better level of debate than "my dad says so, and he could beat up your dad". If you state something controversial as fact, link supporting evidence.

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

**HONEST QUESTION ALERT**

What percentage of the people who have died from being Tased have tox screens which come back with a large amount of alcohol and/or narcotics? It seems that the person is always hopped up on something. If they'd have had a clean bloodstream do you think the Taser would have killed them? Or is that too inclusive also?

I cant say for sure, but I am guessing a good number of them are under the influence of something- And yes, I would think the chance of sudden death (v-tach and later v-fib) is lessened considerably if stimulants are not in the body.

But this does not take away from the fact that some individuals are at extreme risk whether they are on stimulants or not- namely people with undiagnosed cardiomyopathy.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

I cant say for sure, but I am guessing a good number of them are under the influence of something- And yes, I would think the chance of sudden death (v-tach and later v-fib) is lessened considerably if stimulants are not in the body.

But this does not take away from the fact that some individuals are at extreme risk whether they are on stimulants or not- namely people with undiagnosed cardiomyopathy.

Then maybe the onus should be on them to not get involved in situations that might set their pre-existing conditions off (such as extreme sports, or criminal activity that might end with them having to deal with the police). I don't think that's too much to ask of a person living in our society.

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

Then maybe the onus should be on them to not get involved in situations that might set their pre-existing conditions off (such as extreme sports, or criminal activity that might end with them having to deal with the police). I don't think that's too much to ask of a person living in our society.

I agree, but will just mention that most people are not aware that they have a pre-existing condition.

Anyways, we are talking about a small number of people, and it is probably not enough to warrant the elimination of tasers.

edit: On a lighter note, I remember one of my professors telling us about an older gentleman whose month long episode of Atrial Fibrillation was stopped after being shocked with a taser by the police... possibly the only time someone came out of a taser incident in a good mood. (not sure if this was documented, or just an urban legend)

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

Then maybe the onus should be on them to not get involved in situations that might set their pre-existing conditions off (such as extreme sports, or criminal activity that might end with them having to deal with the police). I don't think that's too much to ask of a person living in our society.

The criminal activity involved in the two incidents up for discussion are "not showing ID in the library" and "going to the airport and not speaking the local language".

I remember when tasers were first introduced. They were "sold" to the public on the idea that they would be an alternative to lethal force. You know -- "now, instead of shooting a violent or threatening offender, we can use the taser to incapacitate them".

So, knowing that, if they hadn't been issued tasers, would the cops in the library/airport situations have been justified in shooting those people?

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The criminal activity involved in the two incidents up for discussion are "not showing ID in the library" and "going to the airport and not speaking the local language".

I remember when tasers were first introduced. They were "sold" to the public on the idea that they would be an alternative to lethal force. You know -- "now, instead of shooting a violent or threatening offender, we can use the taser to incapacitate them".

So, knowing that, if they hadn't been issued tasers, would the cops in the library/airport situations have been justified in shooting those people?

Incorrect, because if that were true, thousands upon thousands of people would be tasered daily at airports all around the world. Strangely enough, 99.99% of people flying to countries in which they don't speak the native language, do so without having an interaction at all with law enforcement.

And I don't think they were ever sold as being an alternative to lethal force. They are not an alternative to a gun.

My point was Flabb, was that there was no evidence the taser caused any sort of arrhythmia in this case. The autopsy results are stated the way they are because there is no supportive evidence that he died from a taser OR the struggle that ensued after being tasered. I don't think you can tell me which one it was, but you have taken the liberty to tell us it was the taser. I don't think you can say that.

Depending on what side of the fence you are on, you can find a supportive study. If need be I can go to the Taser site and link you everything there supporting that tasers don't cause heart issues, but I'll let you do that on your own. Then you can come back with the counter studies and, in the end, we will be no further along.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The criminal activity involved in the two incidents up for discussion are "not showing ID in the library" and "going to the airport and not speaking the local language".

I remember when tasers were first introduced. They were "sold" to the public on the idea that they would be an alternative to lethal force. You know -- "now, instead of shooting a violent or threatening offender, we can use the taser to incapacitate them".

So, knowing that, if they hadn't been issued tasers, would the cops in the library/airport situations have been justified in shooting those people?

That's part of the problem with this debate. Whether it's the fault of taser companies, the media or the general public, TASERS ARE NOT AN ALTERNATIVE TO LETHAL FORCE.

The response to the threat of death or grievous bodily harm is lethal force- not a taser. That is not to say a taser can not be deployed in such an instance, but it would not be the ideal use of force option.

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

My point was Flabb, was that there was no evidence the taser caused any sort of arrhythmia in this case. The autopsy results are stated the way they are because there is no supportive evidence that he died from a taser OR the struggle that ensued after being tasered. I don't think you can tell me which one it was, but you have taken the liberty to tell us it was the taser. I don't think you can say that.

Depending on what side of the fence you are on, you can find a supportive study. If need be I can go to the Taser site and link you everything there supporting that tasers don't cause heart issues, but I'll let you do that on your own. Then you can come back with the counter studies and, in the end, we will be no further along.

Yes, I added an amendment to my post to reflect that no one can prove with 100% certainty in this case, or virtually any other "death by taser" case, that the taser directly caused a ventricular arrhythmia. Until medical science happens to come across a taser death where the victim was wearing a holter monitor at the time of electrocution, it is a conclusion based on fairly basic science. The situation has been successfully replicated several times with lab animals, and the link between other types of electrocution and ventricular arrhythmia is well documented.

Put it this way- do people actually think the victim in the Vancouver airport incident would still have died if he had not been tasered at all??

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Put it this way- do people actually think the victim in the Vancouver airport incident would still have died if he had not been tasered at all??

ooops, maybe thats a stupid way of asking it- what people think doesn't change the science of the case.

A better question would be "do qualified doctors, familiar with the case, actually think the individual would have still died if he had not been tased"?? And assuming all other elements of the arrest went down the same way.

[jar_e]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Man HOW THE HELL is he supposed to stand up after being tazed twice? That officer should be slapped silly.

You can stand up pretty much seconds after the taser stops its cycle. There's no after effects or "dazed" feeling.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Guy gets beaten for filming police in public.

https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...9.html&h=4644f

What a bully.....

[valo403]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Guy gets beaten for filming police in public.

https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...9.html&h=4644f

What a bully.....

Cops like that deserve to be curb stomped

[Beerfest]

In before Cop defenders say he just should of turned off the camera.

This quote from the article sums it up.

"Officer Colling was aggravated that a citizen should have the audacity to video tape, him -- a Las Vegas Metropolitan Patrol Officer,'' Otto wrote. "Officer Colling decided to use the fear and terror of his physical ability to beat Mr. Crooks into submission -- to teach Mr. Crooks and, by example, all citizens and residents of the Las Vegas Valley."

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Guy gets beaten for filming police in public.

https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...9.html&h=4644f

What a bully.....

Cops asked him "Do you live here" and he responded "No". That would be tresspassing.

Cops were investigating a burglary the whole night. While I do think the cops actions were a little much, why does the guy lie at first about not living there?

Any other links that aren't on Facebook??