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Old 04-08-2011, 03:08 PM   #81
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When going to paris, the majority of people would go to the Louvre over a soccer game. We don't have a desination like that, and in order to gain the foot traffic, and tourism that would be required to have a "self sustainable museum", money will have to be used from our taxes to upgrade.
Our geography attracts visitors. We'd be nuts to try to compete with the likes of Paris, London, NYC, etc. in the arts department. You'd be better off putting that money into ski hills, gondolas, and trams running through the mountains a la Jurassic Park if the goal was to attract visitors. Leverage and build off of what we have already and what we're known for.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:22 PM   #82
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I think the other thing I dont quite grasp is the "look at Paris" thing.

Paris is over 2000 years old and has a completely different culture than anywhere in North America never mind Calgary or Edmonton. Calgary is only 35 years older than my still living grandmother fer chrissakes. If I go to Paris, sure I want to see what they have, but when I get back to Calgary I dont want to see a bunch of stuff that was sculpted 9 years ago just because it was done locally.

This kind of stuff tends to form its own path and history and should not be force fed to anyone. Canadians will decide what Canadian culture is....not some government grants to build a nice place to show stuff from elsewhere, though i do understand the value in that as well, but importance to the majority of people? Not so much.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:22 PM   #83
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Says who?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1803231/

"Calgary, in fact, is the country’s most cultural city by expenditures. In 2008, Calgarians spent $1,020 each on arts events and art works, a two-per-cent increase from 2005. Saskatoon was second in 2008, at $1,000 per capita. Canada’s most populous city, Toronto, ranks seventh ($868), Vancouver is 11th ($795) and Montreal 12th ($722)."
Look at the what they were including: "Albertans spent the most per capita attending movies – $48.15, with overall theatre admissions totalling $160-million. More than half of the province’s cultural spending ($1.8-billion) went to home-entertainment services and equipment, with expenditures on reading material ($550-million) making up the second-largest category."

I'm sorry, but going to movies and spening money on home-entertainment hardly qualifies as cultural activities in my book. Sure cinema is part of it, but give me a break. That article you cite is pretty much just saying that Calgarians/Albertans have a lot of money to blow.

I don't know how people can argue against a contemporary art museum in Calgary. Those sorts of things add so much value to a city and specifically to that area of that city. Not to mention the populace becomes much more appreciative of the fine arts which may trickle down into more of an arts scene in Calgary.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:23 PM   #84
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"Gate" from public exhibits are but one component of what a museum does. Preservation, archiving and research of historical artifacts is also very important to society.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:30 PM   #85
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I think the other thing I dont quite grasp is the "look at Paris" thing.

Paris is over 2000 years old and has a completely different culture than anywhere in North America never mind Calgary or Edmonton. Calgary is only 35 years older than my still living grandmother fer chrissakes. If I go to Paris, sure I want to see what they have, but when I get back to Calgary I dont want to see a bunch of stuff that was sculpted 9 years ago just because it was done locally.

This kind of stuff tends to form its own path and history and should not be force fed to anyone. Canadians will decide what Canadian culture is....not some government grants to build a nice place to show stuff from elsewhere, though i do understand the value in that as well, but importance to the majority of people? Not so much.
I don't think anyone is expecting Calgary to turn into Paris. That will never happen. However, cultural spaces do have the power to transform in big ways.

Forget Paris, and look at Bilbao. An industrial city almost nobody had heard of till a Canadian came calling with his fancy museum. Now it's on a lot of people's must-see list whenever they are in Spain.

Personally, while tourism is great, I think it's the locals who tend to get the most value from a great museum. Some people mock school field trips to museums, but a trip to a place like the Tyrrell Museum can create memories for life. I know I was pretty blown away the first time I saw that place as a kid, and I'm proud that it's in Alberta. It's our best and most unique museum by far....
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Old 04-08-2011, 04:04 PM   #86
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I think the other thing I dont quite grasp is the "look at Paris" thing.

Paris is over 2000 years old and has a completely different culture than anywhere in North America never mind Calgary or Edmonton. Calgary is only 35 years older than my still living grandmother fer chrissakes. If I go to Paris, sure I want to see what they have, but when I get back to Calgary I dont want to see a bunch of stuff that was sculpted 9 years ago just because it was done locally.

This kind of stuff tends to form its own path and history and should not be force fed to anyone. Canadians will decide what Canadian culture is....not some government grants to build a nice place to show stuff from elsewhere, though i do understand the value in that as well, but importance to the majority of people? Not so much.
Nobody is being force-fed any culture. You have the option to stay at home, watch American TV, listen to and buy American music, and read American or European books, or not read at all. Canadian arts funding is not based on the concept of choosing a few Canadian artists who typify the genre and funding them so that they become part of a national canon of work. Instead, it has a much greater focus overall in creating an environment where emerging and mid-career artists are allowed the chance to develop and promote their work. Beyond that, market forces determine which music individuals listen to, what books are bought, and what paintings or sculpture are highly valued.

That said, I'm talking specifically here about funding for individual artists and arts organizations. Museums are definitely different, but they're still subject to market forces; the success of and popularity of exhibits will have a major role in determining what is exhibited. Group of Seven works are highly exhibited through Canada not because of government funding, but because audiences support such exhibits by purchasing tickets.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:07 PM   #87
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"Gate" from public exhibits are but one component of what a museum does. Preservation, archiving and research of historical artifacts is also very important to society.
This is the part that many people overlook. Additionally, all those artifacts that the museum has are being held in trust for the people of Alberta. Those things belong to the citizens and the government has a duty of care to preserve them for the people who own them (the people of Alberta).
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:18 PM   #88
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Nobody is being force-fed any culture. You have the option to stay at home, watch American TV, listen to and buy American music, and read American or European books, or not read at all. Canadian arts funding is not based on the concept of choosing a few Canadian artists who typify the genre and funding them so that they become part of a national canon of work. Instead, it has a much greater focus overall in creating an environment where emerging and mid-career artists are allowed the chance to develop and promote their work. Beyond that, market forces determine which music individuals listen to, what books are bought, and what paintings or sculpture are highly valued.
No idea what this has to do with what i said. Though I will say "force fed" was the wrong term. Any government funding for anything however, is yours and mine whether or not we enjoy it. If money is used to give Canadians a competitive advantage over others, then yes I can certainly see the benefit in that. Im just not sure how much.



Quote:
That said, I'm talking specifically here about funding for individual artists and arts organizations. Museums are definitely different, but they're still subject to market forces; the success of and popularity of exhibits will have a major role in determining what is exhibited. Group of Seven works are highly exhibited through Canada not because of government funding, but because audiences support such exhibits by purchasing tickets.

there are always the success stories of government funded programs much like the Cirque de Soleil story earlier. There are likely a 100 times more failures too...though that isnt a problem either as things dont ever occur without taking a chance at times.

That doesnt change the crux of the argument though. Any dollar funded by the gov't is a dollar funded by everyone. Not everyone enjoys hockey. Not everyone enjoys arts. But if one gets it...both should.
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:44 PM   #89
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Enjoyment of "the thing" should not be the sole criteria for determining who gets money. Hockey and the arts are so different. Hockey teams are owned by billionaires with a very much financial centred interest. A giant art museum wouldn't be in it for the money, but rather to provide the arts for a community.

Furthermore, the investment over the long run in a hockey team could make a lot of wealth for the owners. I am not certain how much the flames were purchased for, but it certainly wasn't over 200 million, which is roughly where it is valued at now.

The art museum on the other hand wouldnt be purchased by a billionaire(s) for the purpose of holding onto it for a long time to eventually sell it. The two industries are just so different that a lot more has to go into it than simply "I like this, you like that, lets both get money".

Take also into consideration that the visual arts, specifically, are so underfunded in Calgary right now that I personally believe that some big time government funding has to happen in that area. On that point I'm sure there will be lots of disagreement however.
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:55 PM   #90
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Enjoyment of "the thing" should not be the sole criteria for determining who gets money.
Sole criteria? No, and I am not even suggesting that. But when its public money, it should be considered highly as to what the public wants...its their money afterall.

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Hockey teams are owned by billionaires with a very much financial centred interest. A giant art museum wouldn't be in it for the money, but rather to provide the arts for a community.

Furthermore, the investment over the long run in a hockey team could make a lot of wealth for the owners. I am not certain how much the flames were purchased for, but it certainly wasn't over 200 million, which is roughly where it is valued at now
All irrelevant to the discussion. Its about public funds and what the public would prefer with their funds. If it's good enough for the minority of the public to be funded, it has to be in all good conscience, good enough for what the majority would enjoy more to be funded. Again...its their money. They are the ones who will get the pleasure of whatever is invested in...which is why I keep coming back to the same thing...if your gonna give that much money to one group, you have to give it to the other. Or to niether.

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The art museum on the other hand wouldnt be purchased by a billionaire(s) for the purpose of holding onto it for a long time to eventually sell it. The two industries are just so different that a lot more has to go into it than simply "I like this, you like that, lets both get money".
Rinse and repeat. Why can the arts side not grasp that just because they dont get the funding they need for what they want, that does not entitle them to receive it over any other group seeking funding for what they like. Its not YOUR money. Its everybodys. And everybody means the public who are footing the bill.

If it comes down to one or the other, then I am pretty certain that public sentiment would choose an arena 10 times over an art gallery. Why? Because there are far far far more hockey/concert/event fans who are footing the bill over those who would prefer to view art. I dont even think its debateable. And again...since it is their money being spent...

Best scenario is both or niether get what they want.
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:27 PM   #91
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You couldn't pay me to go to a museum.
Why is this not a shock?
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:59 PM   #92
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Why is this not a shock?
Get a life. If you have a problem with me PM me instead of trying to de-rail every thread.
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:03 PM   #93
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Ever been to Paris?
Ever been to Egypt?
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:18 PM   #94
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Ever been to Egypt?
Ever been to Fotze's Mom's house?
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:19 PM   #95
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I'm actually of the opinion that society on the whole advanced once the concept of art collections moved from the preserve of private, wealthy patrons to the public-at-large. Even moreso outside of the religious context.

You can't really put a price tag on it all, it's intertwined with the whole concept of democracy.

Some kid is going to be inspired by a typical school excursion, and that one kid will end up making a difference.
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Old 04-09-2011, 02:28 AM   #96
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Ever been to Fotze's Mom's house?
Ever been to, fart?

/pretending museums represent out culture
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Old 04-09-2011, 02:44 AM   #97
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So completely disregard the lack (and need) of an arts museum because if people want an arts museum there damn well better be a new and better arena! Uhh....whaaa??? I think you seriously underestimate how many people crave and support the arts, especially in this city.

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Old 04-10-2011, 10:04 AM   #98
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This is from an article about the "peace" bridge but seems rather applicable on this topic as well.

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Nenshi recalls seven or eight years ago when he had a layover in Milwaukee.

With time to kill, he visited an “unbelievably gorgeous building.” It was the Milwaukee Art Museum and it was designed by Calatrava.

“How many people go to Milwaukee for the art museum?” he asks.

How many fewer for a footbridge?
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Old 04-10-2011, 10:09 AM   #99
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This is from an article about the "peace" bridge but seems rather applicable on this topic as well.
I'm so sick of this argument. There are very few museums, bridges, galleries that people will make a special visit to see. However, adding one of quality adds to the list of attractions to visit a city like Calgary.

Can people stop bringing up the "how many people visit X for solely X" argument. It's so annoying. I'm a little disappointed that Nenshi would make such a tunnel visioned comment.

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Old 04-10-2011, 10:18 AM   #100
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I'm so sick of this argument. There are very few museums, bridges, galleries that people will make a special visit to see. However, adding one of quality adds to the list of attractions to visit a city like Calgary.

Can people stop bringing up the "how many people visit X for solely X" argument. It's so annoying. I'm a little disappointed that Nenshi would make such a tunnel visioned comment.

It's still an extremely valid point regardless. When you are talking about using taxpayer money at this kind of level (1/3rd of a BILLION $$), return on said money should most definately be part of the decision. I am aware that not all of the value can be tanglible in the ledger book, but it most certainly can, and should, be a big chunk.
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