When you start to believe that people who do believe in something are wrong or different....
Believing that people who believe in something are wrong or different isn't atheism though, atheism is the absence of belief in a god.
Does your lack of belief in Zeus make you think those who believe in Zeus are wrong or different?
And what's wrong with thinking someone else is wrong or different, EVERYONE on this forum believes someone else is wrong or different, they think they're cheering for a different and the wrong team.
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Originally Posted by blankall
and if history shows us anything, eventually atheists will.
Baloney.
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Originally Posted by blankall
To put this in context. If Person A believed in 3 gods and Person B in 2 gods, would Person B be necessarily less likely to act irrationally or violently to person A than vice versa. Both people believe they are right, and who cares about the specifics of their beliefs. It has more to do with the human condition and the way we naturally deal with people with different beliefs.
So now it's not atheism it's just different beliefs?
I think you are right here, people are people and some people are nice, some are mean, some to bad things for all kinds of different reasons, you'll find good and bad in any group, atheists or theists.
But it's not the lack of belief of something that's driving things, it's still some positive belief.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
If you believe that religion is the cause of all the ills in society and are in a position of power you might try to outlaw religious expression while at the same time educating the next generation to despise religion. This is basically what happened in the USSR.
False equivocation. The lack of belief in the existence of one or more gods is not equal to the belief that religion is the cause of all ills in society.
Just like theism is not equal to the belief that the lack of religion is the cause of all ills in society.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
What your failing to understand is to the believer or in your case to the unbeliever violence can seem rational because of the long term good it will produce.
I understand some people can think that way. Someone who believes violence can seem rational because of long term goals does so based on their system of values. Neither theism nor atheism by themselves have anything to say about the morality of immoral actions for a greater good.
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Do you honestly not see the slightest bit of contempt for religious people in this statement. Maybe Buddhist monks find your clothes and food funny too?
What's wrong with contempt?
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Originally Posted by blankall
Then you admit you have an ideology? Even if that ideology is only defined by the existence of a second ideology.
We've already been over this. I do happen to subscribe to various ideologies.
If you believe that religion is the cause of all the ills in society and are in a position of power you might try to outlaw religious expression while at the same time educating the next generation to despise religion. This is basically what happened in the USSR.
I'm reasonably sure that in the USSR they felt that the division between classes was the cause of all the ills in society and religion was a tool that was used by the ruling class to maintain the division between classes.
It wasn't so much that they wanted to eradicate religion because it was inherently evil, but because it was invariably used for evil. So, you could think of the efforts of the communists to get rid of religion as akin to a very harsh form of gun control.
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I am assuming you also don't believe in judgment day, an afterlife, a soul, heaven, hell, the devil, etc etc etc...That's a set of beliefs.
So? None of those beliefs are a worldview, and the lack of belief in those things aren't a worldview either. Now belief or non-belief in some of those things may inform my worldview.. i.e. if I don't believe in an afterlife I might value this life more. But they aren't dependent. There are atheists that believe in an afterlife and a soul (not by those terms, but analogues), there are theists who do not believe in an afterlife, a soul, heaven, the devil, etc.
Being a theist or atheist can influence your worldview, but it does not dictate it (in a B must follow A sense), because there's nothing to be dictated from the simple question of "do you believe a god exists", anymore than you can dictate a worldview from the question "do you believe Santa exists".
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Originally Posted by blankall
If I lived in a time that belief in Zeus was a common belief it would most certainly result in a divide between me and others. Besides, how do you know I don't believe in Zeus? I have yet to say anything contrary.
Please, if you believe in Zeus then substitute Wotan or Shiva or some god that you do not believe exists. Is your lack of belief in Wotan a worldview that constitutes your goals, expectations and actions?
Wouldn't it be more accurately said that atheism is the belief in the absence of god?
That depends, weak atheism is the absence in belief in god, strong atheism is the belief in the absence of god.
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
So for the proposition: God exists
An atheist is someone who does not hold that proposition to be true.
A strong atheist would go further and hold that the proposition is false, or that the opposite proposition is true, while a weak atheist wouldn't.
And of course it gets more complicated because a strong atheist will usually have varying degrees of strength depending on the definition of god in question, even some theists are strong atheists with respect to other gods, and a strong atheist may rate their confidence highly with respect to one particular god but less strong with respect to another definition of god.
[QUOTE=photon;3053009]Believing that people who believe in something are wrong or different isn't atheism though, atheism is the absence of belief in a god.
Does your lack of belief in Zeus make you think those who believe in Zeus are wrong or different?
[quote]
By definition I would believe that they are wrong.
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Originally Posted by photon
And what's wrong with thinking someone else is wrong or different, EVERYONE on this forum believes someone else is wrong or different, they think they're cheering for a different and the wrong team.
Baloney.
So now it's not atheism it's just different beliefs?
I think you are right here, people are people and some people are nice, some are mean, some to bad things for all kinds of different reasons, you'll find good and bad in any group, atheists or theists.
But it's not the lack of belief of something that's driving things, it's still some positive belief.
False equivocation. The lack of belief in the existence of one or more gods is not equal to the belief that religion is the cause of all ills in society.
Just like theism is not equal to the belief that the lack of religion is the cause of all ills in society.
I understand some people can think that way. Someone who believes violence can seem rational because of long term goals does so based on their system of values. Neither theism nor atheism by themselves have anything to say about the morality of immoral actions for a greater good.
For someone with no beliefs you certainly do believe in a lot of stuff.....
False equivocation. The lack of belief in the existence of one or more gods is not equal to the belief that religion is the cause of all ills in society.
Just like theism is not equal to the belief that the lack of religion is the cause of all ills in society.
I'm not pushing a theory here: It is observable fact. Those beliefs are common amongst Atheists on this site. It is the motivation for endless threads pointing out the ills of religion. It is also why this thread morphed from a discussion of the murder of some UN workers.
Sure you can be an Atheist without picking up any of the baggage but, many if not most seem to. The proof is posted on this site.
Apparently the majority of Muslims can cope with the existance of non-Muslims without resorting to violence; Others can't.
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Originally Posted by photon
I understand some people can think that way. Someone who believes violence can seem rational because of long term goals does so based on their system of values. Neither theism nor atheism by themselves have anything to say about the morality of immoral actions for a greater good.
Theism if based on a holy book can and should counter an ideology that proposes that the ends justifies the means. Unfortunately history shows us that people are generally more apt to follow a dynamic personality than any belief system.
By definition I would believe that they are wrong.
Right, so how much "irrational actions and/or violence" has your lack of belief in Zeus/Wotan/Shiva resulted in? How much "irrational actions and/or violence" has resulted from you thinking that they are wrong in their beliefs?
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Originally Posted by blankall
For someone with no beliefs you certainly do believe in a lot of stuff.....
For someone on a discussion forum you avoid a lot of actual discussion.
I'm not pushing a theory here: It is observable fact. Those beliefs are common amongst Atheists on this site. It is the motivation for endless threads pointing out the ills of religion. It is also why this thread morphed from a discussion of the murder of some UN workers.
So? The people on this site are not necessarily representative of atheists in general, any more than the religious people on this site are necessarily representative of theists in general.
People who choose to engage in discussions about certain topics select themselves towards strong views, because the people without strong views don't care so usually don't participate in the discussion.
The lack of belief in a god does not equate to the belief that religion is the "cause of all the ills in society".
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Sure you can be an Atheist without picking up any of the baggage but, many if not most seem to. The proof is posted on this site.
Flawed for two reasons.. the first because the actions and beliefs of a few dozen people on a forum are not representative of all atheists/agnostics/whatevers, it can't be because it's not a statistically significant sample size.. second because even if it is, correlation does not equal causation.
If someone things religion is overall harmful to society they could (and many I know do) believe so because of the information they've evaluated, not because they don't believe in a god.
Some people who DO believe in god also think religion is overall harmful to society.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Apparently the majority of Muslims can cope with the existance of non-Muslims without resorting to violence; Others can't.
I don't understand the point here.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Theism if based on a holy book can and should counter an ideology that proposes that the ends justifies the means.
Sure, unless that's the ideology in the book EDIT: But the ideology is coming from the book, not the simple belief that god exists. Religious books typically propose entire belief systems, entire worldviews, otherwise they'd be really really short. "God Exists. The End."
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Unfortunately history shows us that people are generally more apt to follow a dynamic personality than any belief system.
So? The people on this site are not necessarily representative of atheists in general, any more than the religious people on this site are necessarily representative of theists in general.
People who choose to engage in discussions about certain topics select themselves towards strong views, because the people without strong views don't care so usually don't participate in the discussion.
The lack of belief in a god does not equate to the belief that religion is the "cause of all the ills in society".
But the atheists on this site often resort to links of both cartoons and articles/web sites by leaders within the atheist movement. Those cartoons and articles/web sites contain the arguments they use on this site. I doubt any of you have contributed an original thought to the conversation. You can't honestly believe these guys don't represent a large segment of atheistic opinion.
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Originally Posted by photon
Flawed for two reasons.. the first because the actions and beliefs of a few dozen people on a forum are not representative of all atheists/agnostics/whatevers, it can't be because it's not a statistically significant sample size.. second because even if it is, correlation does not equal causation.
If someone things religion is overall harmful to society they could (and many I know do) believe so because of the information they've evaluated, not because they don't believe in a god.
Some people who DO believe in god also think religion is overall harmful to society.
Again the source of these few dozen atheist's arguments are from popular modern atheist thought. They quote and link to guys like Dawkins with regularlity.
Also what you call information about religion often is just thinly disguised atheistic propaganda. Eliminate the typical comparative religious study course and a couple of faithless "spiritual" authors and you will only discover those negative opinions of religion on hard core atheist sites.
Besides arguing that a Theist can come to the same negative opinions about religion doesn't negate the observable fact that Atheists are drawn to such baggage. Moreover those commonly held atheistic views of religion affects the rest of their world view.
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Originally Posted by photon
Sure, unless that's the ideology in the book EDIT: But the ideology is coming from the book, not the simple belief that god exists. Religious books typically propose entire belief systems, entire worldviews, otherwise they'd be really really short. "God Exists. The End."
So you believe that the Koran itself was the motivation for these Muslim's to commit these murders? Is that what your saying or are you just talking hypothetically?
But the atheists on this site often resort to links of both cartoons and articles/web sites by leaders within the atheist movement. Those cartoons and articles/web sites contain the arguments they use on this site. I doubt any of you have contributed an original thought to the conversation. You can't honestly believe these guys don't represent a large segment of atheistic opinion.
Holy pot meet kettle.
You quote a book that is 2000 years old and then argue that atheists on this board don't contribute any new, original thoughts?
Serious question CB, have you contributed an original thought to this discussion that someone hasn't used in the last 2000 years to defend God and Christianity?
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Bottom line is this. This whole thing proves why religion is lame and needs to GTFO.
Idiot redneck fairy tale book pusher burns brainwashed zealots fairy tale book, knowing this would get a reaction from said idiots. 7 people are now dead over a bunch of BS fairy tales that never happened and contradict each other.
If anyone can say religion brings anything good to the table after garbage like this, well, I feel sad for the fact that they were brainwashed into believing in this tripe.
If this guy had burned plans for a new energy source only good exploitable within the confines of Afghanistan, or killed one of their political figures traveling abroad... It could be somewhat justified, because then it would some sort of basis of truth. But this is over someone burning a frikkin book.
This guy has blood on his hands, as he is just as if not more responsible for the death of these people, as these Afghans are. These people are so brainwashed by their religion from their upbringing, and so developmentally impaired to modern society, this could have been predicted. Life is cheap there, as just demonstrated by, 1 Koran = 7 human lives.
The whole thing sucks.
This pretty much says it all, and puts religion in its pathetic place. Hopefully more people start following this type of thinking so we can stop dying over this crap:
Science and Atheism FTW!
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You quote a book that is 2000 years old and then argue that atheists on this board don't contribute any new, original thoughts?
Serious question CB, have you contributed an original thought to this discussion that someone hasn't used in the last 2000 years to defend God and Christianity?
The conversation here is on the source of what has been coined as "atheist baggage". Photon has suggested that the contempt shown towards religion on this site is isolated to these particular atheists. I rightly pointed out that their contempt is hardly isolated to this site and in fact mirrors what we find on the major web sites and in the popular books written by atheists.
What does any of this conversation have to do with the sources of my beliefs?
I guess I'd ask then, what is the point of atheism other than nihilism? This is such a shallow void of a belief.
Does the relevance of that answer sway the mind-boggling claims of organized religion?
Is willful ignorance superior to potential nihilism?
And let's do away with the claims that atheism has anything to prove. The unnamed anchors being attached to atheism are extensions of a lifetime doctrine that requires loyalty on the pain of eternal damnation.
"Those guys are probably lying" is one of the simplest and most honest ways to move a society forward. Allusions to "athiest baggage" is silliness.
edit: whoops, I'm way behind. I haven't even read these dubious claims of atheist baggage.
edit: bah, some rather unlettered argument-begetting-circular reasoning. Nothing particularly worth adding other than Jesus did say unto his people that they should expect to mocked for their beliefs. I expect them (including the CP's own) to least take the abuse with some semblance of dignity befitting immortal leaders of morality.
Please, if you believe in Zeus then substitute Wotan or Shiva or some god that you do not believe exists. Is your lack of belief in Wotan a worldview that constitutes your goals, expectations and actions?
EDIT: But the ideology is coming from the book, not the simple belief that god exists. Religious books typically propose entire belief systems, entire worldviews, otherwise they'd be really really short. "God Exists. The End."
