Acupuncture- Real or B.S.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by troutman

I think what the research is showing is that accupuncture "works" in that it makes some patients feel better, but it is not the needles that are doing anything - it is the ritual and the placebo effect that is effective.

When I was 13 years old I had a lower back injury and physiotherapy was not working at all...I went for acupuncture and it cured my back within 4 treatments.

Within the last two years I have been having knee issues so I went for IMS (Inter-Muscular Stimulation) which is more of an active form of acupuncture. This most definitely works.

1 month ago I got whiplash and again went for a combination of Acupuncture-Chiro-IMS-Massage and the combination worked marvelously.

Acupuncture, especially IMS definitely does work. It is more of an active form of acupuncture and I have had great success with it...and that's without doing the exercises the docs told me to do. I'm terrible with that.

Anyways, I'd suggest going and trying it out yourself...for every single Pain/Injury you'll get 1000 different opinions on what to do. Ultimately it is your body and you know what will work and won't work.

[Thor]

There is a lot to the 'ritual' part, its an added powerful affect that people have when visiting naturopaths and other alternative practitioners. The example is often given of a doctor's visit, they are so busy and their time so precious that you get in and out quickly with your doctor and have to endure long waits to see them.

Now take a visit to a naturpath who will talk with you for 30 mins, an hour. Discuss a whole range of issues bothering you, give you suggestions for improving your health, some of them probably good ones.

Its not strange at all why people so often choose big placebo, and why its such a massive industry world wide.

I think the only thing skeptics would say on this is ask yourself before you try something alternative, what is the evidence backing up these claims, what are the risks, and ultimately can I afford this?

My biggest problem with the whole of alternative medicine is there is so much crap mixed in with actually useful and good therapies/alt-medicines that lose credibility by being seen at the same conference with magnetic stone therapy, crystal therapy, aura photography, etc..

People so often mistrust and hate big pharma, because they make money and are evil. Its odd to me why alt medicine isn't treated with disdain, the amount of money quackery makes is outlandish, yet so few blink an eye because they feel good about words like natural, herbal, traditional, etc..

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by Thor

There is a lot to the 'ritual' part, its an added powerful affect that people have when visiting naturopaths and other alternative practitioners. The example is often given of a doctor's visit, they are so busy and their time so precious that you get in and out quickly with your doctor and have to endure long waits to see them.

Now take a visit to a naturpath who will talk with you for 30 mins, an hour. Discuss a whole range of issues bothering you, give you suggestions for improving your health, some of them probably good ones.

Its not strange at all why people so often choose big placebo, and why its such a massive industry world wide.

I think the only thing skeptics would say on this is ask yourself before you try something alternative, what is the evidence backing up these claims, what are the risks, and ultimately can I afford this?

My biggest problem with the whole of alternative medicine is there is so much crap mixed in with actually useful and good therapies/alt-medicines that lose credibility by being seen at the same conference with magnetic stone therapy, crystal therapy, aura photography, etc..

People so often mistrust and hate big pharma, because they make money and are evil. Its odd to me why alt medicine isn't treated with disdain, the amount of money quackery makes is outlandish, yet so few blink an eye because they feel good about words like natural, herbal, traditional, etc..

It's the same thing as the word Organic, these words become a marketing tool. And they'll be people trying to take advantage of these trends and be phonies.

For the most part though, my experience with Holistic healing (if that's what acupuncture and IMS falls under) has been very positive.

I'm an engineer by background and that apparently makes me immediately skeptical to everything (or so my wife tells me). I am a firm believer in doing research, but I also am a firm believer in if something works for me, I'll stick with it.

The Downtown Integrative Health Clinic on 7th Ave and 8th St has been very good to me. Their staff are extremely knowledgeable about the entire human body and I tend to learn a ton while getting my treatments.

Skeptics will always be skeptics, but if a person hasn't tried it then honestly they aren't qualified to make a judgment...IMO.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Anecdotal vs. Evidence though.

I am glad that it worked for you ? But could it not be the placebo effect playing a role in that ?

I think we need to clarify that by "acupuncture" this thread is referring to solving medical issues like migraines, etc.

Unless I'm mistaken, acupuncture that targets stiff muscles is scientifically backed.

Or am I mistaken?

[sec304]

I've had intramuscular stimulation acupuncture for my lower back problems (at 5th ave physio) and it worked amazingly. It was great for resetting your hurt back muscles and you could feel it work out the knots. I don't think that is the type of acupuncture people speak about when discussing "real or not" though, that's traditional chinese acupuncture.

here's a read on it (intramuscular is at the end):
http://www.fifthavephysiotherapy.com...cupuncture.php

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Anecdotal vs. Evidence though.

I am glad that it worked for you ? But could it not be the placebo effect playing a role in that ?

A few people have said they have had acupuncture to cure their ailments. I have used acupuncture about 10 times in my life to fix muscles issues that would not go away. It has fixed my issue every time. I am convinced it works.

How can you deny that it works? It appears you will never be convinced. Why do you have a hate on for it?

PS. I believe that acupuncture frees the energy flows of your body that have become stuck. I believe it can not magically fix medical issues. It can help fix the reason for some medical issues. But resolve them.

Anybody advertising that acupuncture can be used for weightloss is a scammer. Acupuncture could be used to make somebody feel better and then perhaps they get more active. But that is the only way weightloss will happen.

[photon]

What kind of energy?

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

A few people have said they have had acupuncture to cure their ailments. I have used acupuncture about 10 times in my life to fix muscles issues that would not go away. It has fixed my issue every time. I am convinced it works.

How can you deny that it works? It appears you will never be convinced. Why do you have a hate on for it?

PS. I believe that acupuncture frees the energy flows of your body that have become stuck. I believe it can not magically fix medical issues. It can help fix the reason for some medical issues. But resolve them.

Anybody advertising that acupuncture can be used for weightloss is a scammer. Acupuncture could be used to make somebody feel better and then perhaps they get more active. But that is the only way weightloss will happen.

he is not denying that it "works" for some people, but simply wants proof that it works more frequently than a placebo procedure works for the same issue and frankly, those studies are lacking.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

he is not denying that it "works" for some people, but simply wants proof that it works more frequently than a placebo procedure works for the same issue and frankly, those studies are lacking.

Yes, but until he sees those studies he denies that it actually works. Right? That is how I am interpreting his comments. Maybe I am interpreting them wrong.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by photon

What kind of energy?

Acupuncture is based on the flow of energy in a person's body...I believe it is vibrational energy. There are lots of words for it depending on the language. Hindus use Chakra, Chinese use Chi I believe.

[photon]

Vibrational energy is called heat, and it's easily measured with a thermometer. It cannot become "stuck"; how heat behaves in a system is extremely well understood.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

One of my girlfriends is getting acupuncture because she has been trying to get pregnant for over 3 years now. She and her husband have tried everything, including various expensive medical procedures and they've had no luck. She thinks this will work. The power of suggestion knows no boundaries.. but I am skeptical.

I can imagine how that session goes, 'you may feel a little prick' followed by the sound of a zipper!

[Knut]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

Yes, but until he sees those studies he denies that it actually works. Right? That is how I am interpreting his comments. Maybe I am interpreting them wrong.

The Studies currently say that there is no evidence that acupuncture works. Therefore, those that say it does work are using anecdotal evidence. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that there are factors such as Placebo, comfort of the place etc that can help a person feel better.

In fact i can even see the benefit of increasing blood flow to an area using the needles. This brings your natural anti-inflammatories to the area better. However, you can do this with massage, exercise etc I feel that the benefit of Acupunture, for me, is not there. For others it might be... just do not say that Acupuncture helps balance your energy etc. As that is just saying it makes you feel better. The potential of harm from sticking needles in your body IMO is greater than any benefit i would receive from it.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by Hesla

The Studies currently say that there is no evidence that acupuncture works. Therefore, those that say it does work are using anecdotal evidence. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that there are factors such as Placebo, comfort of the place etc that can help a person feel better.

In fact i can even see the benefit of increasing blood flow to an area using the needles. This brings your natural anti-inflammatories to the area better. However, you can do this with massage, exercise etc I feel that the benefit of Acupunture, for me, is not there. For others it might be... just do not say that Acupuncture helps balance your energy etc. As that is just saying it makes you feel better. The potential of harm from sticking needles in your body IMO is greater than any benefit i would receive from it.

So then I am wrong when I say it works for me?

[Knut]

I said it is very possible it works for you just not for the reasons you list.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

So then I am wrong when I say it works for me?

No, but you are wrong about why it works for you:

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

I believe that acupuncture frees the energy flows of your body that have become stuck

[JustAnotherGuy]

Okay. I accept that.

Originally Posted by Hesla

I said it is very possible it works for you just not for the reasons you list.

Originally Posted by Sliver

No, but you are wrong about why it works for you:

[TheSutterDynasty]

All of the articles/evidence that's been posted against acupuncture are very, vague. I'd like some clarification...

This...

Originally Posted by troutman

Acupuncture Revisited
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=11765

And this...

Originally Posted by Thor

Just read this today, good timing.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0324104147.htm

Don't say what the heck they even trying to do with the accupuncture. "Pain relief"? What does that mean? Neck pain? Migraines? Psychological pain?

Very unclear articles. Not good arguments IMO.

[photon]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Don't say what the heck they even trying to do with the accupuncture. "Pain relief"? What does that mean? Neck pain? Migraines? Psychological pain?

Depends on what the study being reviewed is, the paper they're talking about isn't a study, it's a review.

From the abstract of the paper:

Acupuncture is commonly used for pain control, but doubts about its effectiveness and safety remain. This review was aimed at critically evaluating systematic reviews of acupuncture as a treatment of pain and at summarizing reports of serious adverse effects published since 2000.

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Very unclear articles. Not good arguments IMO.

Seems very clear to me, these kinds of "meta" studies happen all the time.

EDIT: And it's not evidence against acupuncture, it's lack of evidence for it... it's often quite difficult to prove a negative.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by photon

Depends on what the study being reviewed is, the paper they're talking about isn't a study, it's a review.

I'm aware. But for a review to have substance, it can't just weigh the evidence of several different categories. ie "acupuncture is inconclusive because sometimes it works (ie muscle relaxation) sometimes not (migraines).