2011 Canadian Election Thread

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

I don't know if this has been discussed at all, but I honestly can't see much wrong with the 2011 budget.

There's not near enough in it for people who don't feel like working, according to Jack Layton.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by zamler

There's not near enough in it for people who don't feel like working, according to Jack Layton.

Jack Layton got a lot of the things that he demanded in the budget, except for the revoking of the corporate tax cuts.

At some point Harper is going to use that against Layton when Jack talks about how the Conservatives didn't work with the other parties.

But I want to be fairly clear, I do like Jack Layton, I think he honestly wants to help and I think out of the three he's the least captured by the system.

I just have problems with a political party that has the edge of never having to win an election so they make wild a##ed promises that are unrealistic and unobtainable.

[Aegypticus]

I was almost directly on top of the Conservatives after my first pass on that quiz, and then when I eliminated the issues I don't care about I bullseyed them. I guess I've been voting for the right (correct) party.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Aegypticus

I was almost directly on top of the Conservatives after my first pass on that quiz, and then when I eliminated the issues I don't care about I bullseyed them. I guess I've been voting for the right (correct) party.

That was interesting; I should apparently be voting Green--which was a bit of a surprise.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

I just posted in the other thread that I think Harper will win a majority. Things can change rapidly, but there's a reason Harper wanted (and got) his election now--the Tories know that the iron is hot now: they're up in the polls, flush with cash, and faced with an opposition in disarray.

Just don't kid yourself that the opposition were the ones who wanted this election. Harper wrote the budget specifically as a poison pill for the NDP, precisely so that he could bring about this result. Layton had no choice but to vote against it, knowing that Harper would use it against him at the polls--and Harper knew it. All the hand-waving about "Canadians don't want an election" is just political posturing.

And that disingenuousness is something that bothers me about Harper; there are lots of things he's done that I think are worthy of contempt (and no, they're not "small things": the in and out scandal ALONE should be enough to bring down a government, and then you add to that contempt of parliament, proroguing parliament, the long form census and generally being kind of a dweeb...)

But to me, if you're going to bring about an election, at least be honest that you're the person doing it. I guarantee you the Tories are the only ones who want to go to the polls right now. The liberals are moribund and broke, and the NDP faces the prospect of losing half their seats to the Tories.

And maybe "disingenuous" is being a bit generous. When I was a kid, breaking something and then blaming someone else because it was broken was called "lying."

[Slava]

Exactly. I also note that the CPC "didn't want this election" which is why they've been working on it for the past year, run attack ads and designed a budget to buy votes from as diverse a group as possible.

I still think it's a minority though. Early reports from the hustings are that Ignatieff looks good. He's loose and campaigning well. Harper has more of a problem than his apologists might have you believe as well; he had everything a leader could want and barely won a minority against Martin. Then he gets a minority against the worst Liberal leader in history. Basically he's governed by default....which is still governing but not exactly Brian Mulroney/Jean Chrerien crush the opposition territory.

[billybob123]

Thanks to Furnaceface for that poll. Apparently I should vote for the Bloc?

I wonder what Rob Anders (my MP) would think of that.

I think spoiling my ballot/not voting is the way to go this time... if we want to get rid of Anders, I think Calgary West voters will have to join the party to do it. The lib candidate once said "the conservatives could run a convicted child molester in Calgary West and still win" -- and she's probably right. Is there a more sure-thing riding in all of Canada for the Conservatives?

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

What charisma would he need if you were advising him?

He's decent in interviews, he sings and plays the piano. He's a sports fan that attends hockey games, the Brier and the Olympics.

What else is there?

No Green text

He's decent in interviews? What Stephen Harper have you been watching on television?

He has charisma because he sings and plays the piano?!!?

Every PM in the history of this nation has attended hockey games. I'm not sure how that adds to the mans charisma at all...

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

No Green text

He's decent in interviews? What Stephen Harper have you been watching on television?

He has charisma because he sings and plays the piano?!!?

Every PM in the history of this nation has attended hockey games. I'm not sure how that adds to the mans charisma at all...

How would you change Harper to be more charismatic? How would he need to change? How is Layton more charismatic and likeable when every time he talks I want to put a brick through my tv?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I just posted in the other thread that I think Harper will win a majority. Things can change rapidly, but there's a reason Harper wanted (and got) his election now--the Tories know that the iron is hot now: they're up in the polls, flush with cash, and faced with an opposition in disarray.

Just don't kid yourself that the opposition were the ones who wanted this election. Harper wrote the budget specifically as a poison pill for the NDP, precisely so that he could bring about this result. Layton had no choice but to vote against it, knowing that Harper would use it against him at the polls--and Harper knew it. All the hand-waving about "Canadians don't want an election" is just political posturing.



And maybe "disingenuous" is being a bit generous. When I was a kid, breaking something and then blaming someone else because it was broken was called "lying."

What a load of hooey. Of course he had a choice and lets not make any mistake about it either. This reads like a paid speechwriter right out of the Liberal/NDP caucus.

There WERE concessions specifically laid out for the NDP. So he didn't get all of them, and somehow that makes the Cons unwilling to work with other parties?? Sure thing.

It's funny that when I read from the left that the right is unwilling to compromise to keep things moving, I never hear how it is that they (Libs/NDP) are doing their share of this compromising and we just saw the result of it on Friday. Last I understood it, compromise comes from multiple people involved not just one. Could the PC's have done more? Sure they could have, but they had no obligation to do it either. They are, afterall, the sitting government.

No one has ever been a perfect Pm nor has there ever been a perfect government, and there never will be. That doesn't mean that those who make decisions that you or I disagree with aren't doing their jobs though. If the NDP or the Liberals didnt want an election, they should have voted differently as was their choice. Spinning it anyway else....THAT'S disingenuous.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

What a load of hooey. Of course he had a choice and lets not make any mistake about it either. This reads like a paid speechwriter right out of the Liberal/NDP caucus.

There WERE concessions specifically laid out for the NDP. So he didn't get all of them, and somehow that makes the Cons unwilling to work with other parties?? Sure thing.

It's funny that when I read from the left that the right is unwilling to compromise to keep things moving, I never hear how it is that they (Libs/NDP) are doing their share of this compromising and we just saw the result of it on Friday. Last I understood it, compromise comes from multiple people involved not just one. Could the PC's have done more? Sure they could have, but they had no obligation to do it either. They are, afterall, the sitting government.

No one has ever been a perfect Pm nor has there ever been a perfect government, and there never will be. That doesn't mean that those who make decisions that you or I disagree with aren't doing their jobs though. If the NDP or the Liberals didnt want an election, they should have voted differently as was their choice. Spinning it anyway else....THAT'S disingenuous.

It really doesn't matter. the budget isn't why there is an election. Harper was found in contempt of parliament. That is no small thing. Its one thing to play politics and put spin on things. Contempt of parliament is none of those things though. Its hindering parliament in doing their business, or obscuring parliament so that it cannot function.

In other words the budget is what it is. Boring, stay the course with little handouts for all kinds of demographics. The government was brought down though because they were either deliberately misleading parliament or committees, refusing to testify at committees, etc. These are important things. Frankly whether a volunteer firefighter somewhere gets a cheque from the government is totally meaningless. Making parliament so that it can't work though, when you are claiming to be the rightful governing party is ridiculous. How CPC supporters can somehow breeze past that point makes me shake my head.

[killer_carlson]

Layton was in Edmonton last night. Bah!

At least they are running a good candidate in Edmonton Center (Anne McLellan's old riding) because the Libs are running a good candidate as well. the Conservative MP is hard working so it should be enough that he'll get in on his own, but just in case, the left will split the vote on that one.

[McG]

thanks for the poll! it surprised me that i ended up a bit left of where i thought that i would be, but still a conservative voter by a long shot. that was interesting to me personally.

i don't think that the average canadian is going to care about the partisan crap, especially knowing how tough the economic recovery has been around the world.

i saw a liberal commercial yesterday with ignatief; what a load of bollocks. no plan, no platform, nothing. oh, there were things about mom and apple pie, but nothing that would make you choose to vote for the liberals. i don't get it; are people supposed to get behind nothing?

there is lots of time until the vote to present platforms, but it seems to me that if the libs had an economic platform wouldn't they have presented it against the budget?

[transplant99]

It really doesn't matter. the budget isn't why there is an election. Harper was found in contempt of parliament. That is no small thing. Its one thing to play politics and put spin on things. Contempt of parliament is none of those things though. Its hindering parliament in doing their business, or obscuring parliament so that it cannot function.

There was confidence motion tabled by the Liberals...period. Harper didn't disolve government because the Cons were found in contempt, they disolved it because they lost a confidence vote, whatever that may be based on.

Now if you want to say it was only because of the report that was issued, fine. Had that not happened however, they were going down based on the budget as every single leader said they would not vote to support it when it came out on Monday.

New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton said his party will not support Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s budget as it stands.

Layton made the comments to reporters in Ottawa. Michael Ignatieff, leader of the opposition Liberal Party, and Gilles Duceppe, leader of the Bloc Quebecois, also told reporters in Ottawa today they won’t support the budget

So either way this government was coming down based on what the NDP and Liberals chose to do. Its an inescapable fact as any defeated budget is also seen as a vote of non-confidence and we would still be where we are at today.

They wanted this fight regardless and now they are going to get it. I suspect it was a bad choice on their part at this time but it was theirs to make...no question about it.

[McG]

Originally Posted by Slava

It really doesn't matter. the budget isn't why there is an election. Harper was found in contempt of parliament. That is no small thing. Its one thing to play politics and put spin on things. Contempt of parliament is none of those things though. Its hindering parliament in doing their business, or obscuring parliament so that it cannot function.

In other words the budget is what it is. Boring, stay the course with little handouts for all kinds of demographics. The government was brought down though because they were either deliberately misleading parliament or committees, refusing to testify at committees, etc. These are important things. Frankly whether a volunteer firefighter somewhere gets a cheque from the government is totally meaningless. Making parliament so that it can't work though, when you are claiming to be the rightful governing party is ridiculous. How CPC supporters can somehow breeze past that point makes me shake my head.

this is exactly the question about this election. do canadians care more about the things in the quote, or do they care about a "boring" budget and the economy?

i don't care that a stacked opposition committee didn't get enough information; i do care that there were no new taxes and that canada's economy continue to recover and imo the budget was going to do that.

we will see what canadians think in may.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I just posted in the other thread that I think Harper will win a majority. Things can change rapidly, but there's a reason Harper wanted (and got) his election now--the Tories know that the iron is hot now: they're up in the polls, flush with cash, and faced with an opposition in disarray.

Just don't kid yourself that the opposition were the ones who wanted this election. Harper wrote the budget specifically as a poison pill for the NDP, precisely so that he could bring about this result. Layton had no choice but to vote against it, knowing that Harper would use it against him at the polls--and Harper knew it. All the hand-waving about "Canadians don't want an election" is just political posturing.

And that disingenuousness is something that bothers me about Harper; there are lots of things he's done that I think are worthy of contempt (and no, they're not "small things": the in and out scandal ALONE should be enough to bring down a government, and then you add to that contempt of parliament, proroguing parliament, the long form census and generally being kind of a dweeb...)

But to me, if you're going to bring about an election, at least be honest that you're the person doing it. I guarantee you the Tories are the only ones who want to go to the polls right now. The liberals are moribund and broke, and the NDP faces the prospect of losing half their seats to the Tories.

And maybe "disingenuous" is being a bit generous. When I was a kid, breaking something and then blaming someone else because it was broken was called "lying."

Don't hate the player. Hate the game

The system existed long before Harper came in and you can't really blame him for using it efficiently to his benefit. When all is said and done, Harper's legacy may very well be that he makes it painfully obvious how much of an advantage the party in power has when it comes to manipulating things and staying in power.

I have no love lost for the guy. I think his political strategy from the start of his minority government was to keep the oppositon weak so that he could try and operate as a majority. Making them afraid of elections so they vote for things the Conservatives want is anti-democratic. It's just too bad that the opposition parties fall for it so easily. The fact Harper can do this so easily over and over practically legitimizes him as the only real party in a position to lead right now. To put it bluntly, politics aside, the Conservatives are smart right now, and the other parties are dumb.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Slava

Exactly. I also note that the CPC "didn't want this election" which is why they've been working on it for the past year, run attack ads and designed a budget to buy votes from as diverse a group as possible.

As I said, Harper has consistently outmaneuvered the opposition. I agree that he wanted the election, but he wanted the opposition to force it. He got what he wanted, so the anger of Canadians who don't want to trudge to the polls works in his favour. The opposition's attempts to set this up as an ethics debate has been undermined by the coalition spectre (for now, at least), and as CC notes, Harper can paint the picture that it was the opposition who wasn't willing to work to work with him.

Say what you will about his policies, Harper knows his politics.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

As I said, Harper has consistently outmaneuvered the opposition. I agree that he wanted the election, but he wanted the opposition to force it. He got what he wanted, so the anger of Canadians who don't want to trudge to the polls works in his favour. The opposition's attempts to set this up as an ethics debate has been undermined by the coalition spectre (for now, at least), and as CC notes, Harper can paint the picture that it was the opposition who wasn't willing to work to work with him.

Say what you will about his policies, Harper knows his politics.

Yup.

From a neutral position, you have to admire how much Harper can control the situation. He really gets the most power possible considering the minority he has. I'm not saying that I am neutral. I am a confessed small "l" liberal and make no apologies for it, but even I have to step back and give Harper at least a slow golf clap.

[Slava]

Fair enough, but 5 weeks of "beware the coalition" is going to old pretty fast. Already at a presser this morning he was being asked about 2004...so you have to wonder when they change the strategy into something that actually matters?

For those who say that the Liberals have no plan or vision could you just enlighten me as to the plan/vision of Harper and his cronies? A 5 year majority based on a few tax credits for kids in art doesn't capture my imagination for some reason...

[transplant99]