Libya headed for civil war? Update: Gadhafi dead

[metallicat]

I am following this FMCNL on twitter, and he said this:

Canadian Air Force CFC4235 a CC-130C tail nr 130606 wkg 5598.0 kHz NEW YORK AOC while overhead Atlantic Ocean

Can someone translate that into english?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

I am following this FMCNL on twitter, and he said this:

Canadian Air Force CFC4235 a CC-130C tail nr 130606 wkg 5598.0 kHz NEW YORK AOC while overhead Atlantic Ocean

Can someone translate that into english?

Canadian Airforce Hercules C-130 with tail number nr 130606 squawking on 5598.0 KHz under New York Operational control while its over the Atlantic Ocean?

[IliketoPuck]

Show off

[metallicat]

Thanks. It was the CFC4235 and CC-130C that I didn't understand.

[CaptainCrunch]

Sorry the CFC4235 is probably the aircrafts call sign.

[metallicat]

You have an impressive wealth of knowledge about this sort of thing.

[mikey_the_redneck]

This is clearly more than just a "no fly zone".

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm all ears on this, why is it clearly more then a no fly zone?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm all ears on this, why is it clearly more then a no fly zone?

Well I take the term no-fly-zone at face value.

Now with all the bombings and cruise missiles targeting Gaddafi, it seems like the humaintarian thing went out the window. There is bound to be collateral damage (dead civilians).

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Well I take the term no-fly-zone at face value.

Now with all the bombings and cruise missils targeting Gaddafi, it seems like the humaintarian thing went out the window. There is bound to be collateral damage (dead civilians).

The bombings are about stripping away Libya's anti air defenses, most of the cruise missile attacks are either taking out radar installations missile sites and aircraft and aircraft support points.

The bunker that was bombed in Gaddafi's compound was a air defense command and control center. With the accuracy of bombs and cruise missiles if they wanted to take Ghadaffi out his personal bunker would be a personal crater.

Remember that the other mandate was the protection of civillians lives, which means air strikes against vehicle convoys, supply dumps and troop gatherings.

There is nothing that is happening that goes against the UN Mandate so far.

[Frequitude]

Do they need to have aircraft overhead to control the no-fly zone? (ie why the need to take out the air defenses?)

[FlameOn]

They need aircraft overhead to enforce the NFZ. To keep them from getting shot down, they need to take out air defence first. You don't want to have missiles fired at your aircraft out of nowhere and just make your NFZ useless.

In any case, 40 civilians died today because Gaddafi's forces are still sniping and shelling people in Misrata, NFZ still isn't protecting civilians enough it would seem

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Do they need to have aircraft overhead to control the no-fly zone? (ie why the need to take out the air defenses?)

Let me put it this way.

The SA-5 has an operational range of 200 miles and an operational attitude of I think 100,000 feet

The Sa-3 has a range of about 7 miles and an operational attitude of 35 km's

The SA-2 has a range of 45 km's and a attitude of 66,000 ft

On top of that the Libyan's have a ton of AAA which can probably reach up to at least 10,000 ft.

To enforce the no fly zone you need quick response times so you have to be overtop of the zone. You just can't wait for radar signals of aircraft and then launch from Italy.

On top of that in order to deny the skies to Libya you have to control the skies and the greater threat to allied aircraft is their sam and AAA network.

So yes, in order to effectively control the whole sky you have to kill the defense networks so that you can control the skies with impunity.

[FlameOn]

Geez... the whole middle east is going to hell.. Yemen's going downhill into violence. Their parliament just imposed martial law after several generals stated they would support the pro-democracy protesters after a bunch of the protesters were sniped.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12831981

So far three ministers, several ambassadors and a host of the ruling party MPs have joined the opposition against the president... There are reports of fighting between army and special forces units as well.

[worth]

41 People were shot and killed by Police last Friday in Yemen. Protests there have been ongoing for a couple of months.

[killer_carlson]

(on Piers Morgan who I really like the more I watch him) I saw an interview with a former US general and he put it really plain language.

To paraphrase:

A no fly zone is a strategy to accomplish a mission, it is not a mission in and of itself. What the goal of this coalition is, has not been made clear or well publicized. Without having a clear goal well explained and clearly communicated, one of the bigger risks is "mission creep" where the mission grows and changes. Mission creep has been one of the larger criticisms of Afghanistan and Iraq within US critics.

He also said that there is a tremendous importance on diplomatic streams right now to ensure that the end game is clear from the get go and the freedom fighters/rebels are clear on what the international committment and end game is as well.

So in terms of the no fly zone, consider it a strategy of a larger mission which is still being worked out. Anticipate more disclosure to follow.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

(on Piers Morgan who I really like the more I watch him) I saw an interview with a former US general and he put it really plain language.

To paraphrase:

A no fly zone is a strategy to accomplish a mission, it is not a mission in and of itself. What the goal of this coalition is, has not been made clear or well publicized. Without having a clear goal well explained and clearly communicated, one of the bigger risks is "mission creep" where the mission grows and changes. Mission creep has been one of the larger criticisms of Afghanistan and Iraq within US critics.

He also said that there is a tremendous importance on diplomatic streams right now to ensure that the end game is clear from the get go and the freedom fighters/rebels are clear on what the international committment and end game is as well.

So in terms of the no fly zone, consider it a strategy of a larger mission which is still being worked out. Anticipate more disclosure to follow.

I would expect that we're going to see a massive mission change when the American's transisition command of the mission to either NATO or the French.

The American's didn't really want to be seen as the lead "Crusader" in this operation and they haven't specifically gone after Gaddafi. If the French take charge, I think this turns into a regime change requirement.

It was also interesting to note that the CF-18's were sent on a bombing mission yesterday, and even through they had targets of opportunity they returned to base with their full bomb loads due to the overwhelming chance of civillian casualties. I heard the same thing happened with a British Typhoon as well.

Ghaddafi is trying to do the only thing he can, get his forces in among the civillians so that they can't be bombed from the air.

I would say that we're going to now see a long protracted mission if we're serious about protecting civillian lives.

[burn_this_city]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa...ex.html?hpt=C1

Relief came Wednesday in the besieged western Libyan town of Misrata after a night of coalition airstrikes that witnesses said targeted encampments of forces loyal to Moammar Gadhafi.
But the battle on the ground between pro- and anti-Gadhafi forces was far from over as evidenced by fierce clashes in the eastern town of Ajdabiya, where the opposition appeared to have moved its front line to just 5 kilometers from the city.
Airstrikes targeted military sites in Ajdabiya and Misrata Tuesday night into Wednesday, a U.S. military official said. After the bombardment, Misrata residents reported the first calm in a week.
"It is relatively quiet today -- this is the first time we feel that way in weeks," said Mohammed, an opposition spokesman in the city who would only give his first name. "We want to express our gratitude to the international community since there were airstrikes this morning."

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

What the goal of this coalition is, has not been made clear or well publicized. Without having a clear goal well explained and clearly communicated, one of the bigger risks is "mission creep" where the mission grows and changes.

Obama described the mission as preventing the Libyan military from firing on civilians.

While that may be subject to 'mission creep', is that unsatisfactory as a stand-alone objective?

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would expect that we're going to see a massive mission change when the American's transisition command of the mission to either NATO or the French.

The American's didn't really want to be seen as the lead "Crusader" in this operation and they haven't specifically gone after Gaddafi. If the French take charge, I think this turns into a regime change requirement.

It was also interesting to note that the CF-18's were sent on a bombing mission yesterday, and even through they had targets of opportunity they returned to base with their full bomb loads due to the overwhelming chance of civillian casualties. I heard the same thing happened with a British Typhoon as well.

Ghaddafi is trying to do the only thing he can, get his forces in among the civillians so that they can't be bombed from the air.

I would say that we're going to now see a long protracted mission if we're serious about protecting civillian lives.

Well the only ways that can be changed is either bombing with no regards towards civilian life or send in special forces and get him covertly