Your thoughts on life after death

[photon]

Originally Posted by arloiginla

We as humans didn't inherit a particular "sin" after Adam and Eve, we instead inherited a sinful nature. That is, the natural inclination to do evil. Your comparison to kids going to jail for their parents crimes is an improper parallel.

How is it improper? The kid is subject to something he didn't choose because of the actions of someone else. We have a sinful nature that we didn't choose because of the actions of someone else.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

To be honest I have no idea. In Adam's state I would have been naturally good instead of evil so it's impossible to even hypothetically know that. I hope I wouldn't have chosen what Adam and Eve did...but who knows.

Could you have chosen differently though? Is it possible that you would have chosen to stay in the garden as intended?

Originally Posted by arloiginla

But He isn't tormenting and destroying people

The Bible is filled with it though. How many children died in the flood?

But that's ok because God created them and he can do whatever he wants?

Originally Posted by arloiginla

, nor could He for it is against His very nature. The place we refer to as hell is not God tormenting us, it's the devil tormenting us after we chose him over God. God simply separates us from Him for eternity, which was actually our choice not His. The pain and the suffering in hell is thanks to the devil.

I didn't choose hell, I chose nothing because there was no indication that a choice needed to be made.

You cannot morally be held responsible for not making a choice you honestly did not think was there.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

As I previously mentioned, a fully revealed God wouldn't remove our free will per se, but it would make it a lot ballsier to fly in the face of something that is right in front of our faces visually, in an absolute sense. That would be like me standing in front of you and you still believing I didn't exist. On the other hand, even though I am communicating with you online, you still believe I exist even though you haven't seen me. You can't see the wind either - but you know it is there.

So now it wouldn't remove free will, but it's about how much evidence is appropriate? Paul got knocked off his horse and blinded, if God's no respecter of persons why isn't that granted to everyone?

God knows exactly what it takes to convince me, yet withholds that.

Do you think there's free will in heaven?

Originally Posted by arloiginla

In your opinion. There's nothing unjust about being perfect in every sense, and desiring the same from your people, and offering them that opportunity through Jesus Christ. If those people choose to reject that offer, they spend eternity apart from Him. What's petty and hurtful about that? That's YOUR choice to make. Don't blame God.

What's unjust is that the offer is necessary in the first place. That all must be subjugated even if they don't will it just because they were created by God. That the offer is obscure, given in such a way that it's impossible to determine if it's even accurate or legitimate, or that a choice is even necessary at all.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Why is the Bible incapable of being an accurate portrayal of God?

Because the God it describes changes depending on who's doing the writing, proposing self-contradictory views on the nature of God, life, evil, suffering, and all the rest of the human condition.

Not to mention that we don't even know what the Bible originally said, we don't have the originals.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Incorrect parallel. You are confusing belief with reality, or truth. You believe the earth is round because it is so. Experience is a fact - they are things that happen. What we choose to do with that experience is our choice.

"Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."

So no, not incorrect parallel. I cannot choose what premises I hold to be true, at least not while being intellectually honest with myself.

I didn't choose to disbelieve in the God of the Bible, I was FORCED to disbelieve because of other information.

Yes we can choose what to do with our experience, we can ignore what we learn, but that's not honest.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

God has given us His written word, as well as His creation and hopefully we see glimpses of Him in some of His people as well -

All the other gods have given their written world and creation and we glimpses of them in their people too.

And we don't have God's written words, we have copies, some of which aren't even legitimate. Paul didn't write all of the letters attributed to him in the NT for example.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

You haven't been given zero reason to believe.

Yes, I have. How can you know what I have and haven't been given?

Originally Posted by arloiginla

You have just decided that there isn't enough reason to suit you, and are unwilling to step out in a bit of faith and allow God to reveal other things to you.

How do you know that? How do you know how much stepping out I've done, how much allowing of revealing I've given?

Originally Posted by arloiginla

He reveals enough that "men will be without excuse."

And yet here we are, with nothing I can unambiguously say that is revelation in any fashion.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Again, evidence is around us. It's in the order of the universe, in the DNA that comprises us. Because science has shown us how these things work, we then feel that gives us license to discredit where it came from.

How do you tell the difference between evidence of God's hand and natural events? Does God cause lightning? Does God make it flood, cause earthquakes, make the planets orbit? Historically that line has always fallen right where the line of understanding lies. Things get attributed to God right up until we figure out how it really works.

Order and DNA aren't evidence for God. Even if you could demonstrate that there was design, that still doesn't mean god, anymore than it means the universe-designing lizard aliens that created our universe.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

I've seen lots of evidence being given, but if it doesn't align with atheists worldviews they just say its not "real evidence." I've seen that argument before and it just goes in circles. That's why I'm not even going there.

Don't project your own methods on others. So much of what you are saying could just as easily be coming from a Muslim or other religion, and you would discount it as "not real evidence", saying I should reject it from their mouths and accept it from yours.

And you are also wrong because the majority of Christians who's opinion on such matters is relevant in their respective fields (biologists, geologists, cosmologists, astronomers, etc) agree with me, and they're clearly not atheists. Most of the "evidence" for design put forward is put forward by people not experienced in the relevant field, or put forward in a non-scientific venue where their claims do not have to stand up to the scrutiny of their (often Christian) peers.

[QUOTE=arloiginla;3021100
I found reason to accept and I find that those reasons multiply and solidify themselves all the time as I search God and strive to learn more about Him. At the end of the day I'll always have my personal testimony as to my search for the Truth and that I've found it, but I'm 100% positive you don't want to hear stuff like that.[/quote]

I can say the exact same thing. I spent almost 30 years in the Church, at many levels of serving and leadership.

Now why is your testimony valid but mine isn't?

Or why is your testimony but the exact same testimony from another religion isn't valid?

Originally Posted by arloiginla

You're still a human as she is. God didn't have to purchase us, He made us.

So I'm her dad then, I made her.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Big difference and one on a level you can't really comprehend if you believe there is no higher power.

Condescension is not becoming, and that's the weakest argument of all. "You can't understand if you don't believe". I used to believe in a higher power, so yes I can comprehend.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

No human being can be a master over anything in the same way God is sovereign over all. His sovereignty has no limits. That's tough to wrap a brain around admittedly.

This is one of the ultimate reasons I actually left Church rather than just staying and being a cultural Christian. I can ignore the moral issues for myself because I've already grown up with it all and overcome the indoctrination, but I couldn't raise my son in it. Because I think the basic moral foundation you're putting forward is destructive, and I've seen it from both the inside and the outside.

[Skyceman]

Originally Posted by photon

God knows exactly what it takes to convince me, yet withholds that.

Perhaps now He does, Photon, but in life circumstances can change quickly. Facing tremendous suffering or death can shake the very foundations of how far we are willing to take our disbelief. I guess the whole point of this thread really comes down to the fact that none of us can answer the question until we face it ourselves. I do know that when that time comes, there will be many more open to the idea.

[CaptainCrunch]

McCoy: Perhaps, we could cover a little philosophical ground. Life
[pause]
McCoy: Death
[pause]
McCoy: Life.
[pause]
McCoy: Things of that nature.
Spock: I did not have time on Vulcan to review the philosophical disciplines.
McCoy: C'mon, Spock, it's me, McCoy. You really have gone where no man's gone before. Can't you tell me what it felt like?
Spock: It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame-of-reference.
McCoy: You're joking!
Spock: A joke
[pause]
Spock: is a story with a humorous climax.
McCoy: You mean I have to die to discuss your insights on death?
Spock: Forgive me, Doctor. I am receiving a number of distress calls.
McCoy: I don't doubt it.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by troutman

If I could offer you a pill that would extend your life by 100 years with good health, would you take it?

I have similar beliefs as he does, and I would take that. I think I know what you're going with this.

[Dion]

Some quotes from Morrie Schwartz........

"The culture doesn't encourage you to think about such things until you're about to die. We're so wrapped up with egostical things, career, family, having enough money, meeting the mortgage, getting a new car, fixing the radiator when it breaks. We're involved in trillions of little acts just to keep going . So we don't get into the habit of standing back and looking at our lives and saying, Is this all? Is this all I want? Is something missing?"

As you grow old, you learn more. If you stayed at twenty-two, you'd always be as ignorant as you were at twenty-two. Aging is not just decay, you know. It's growth. It's more than the negative that you're going to die, its also the positive that you understand you're going to die, and that you live a better life because of it."

"As long as we can love each other, and remember the feeling of love we had, we can die without ever really going away. All the love you created is still there. All the memories are still there. You live on—in the hearts of everyone you have touched and nurtured while you were here"

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/morrie/

[troutman]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I have similar beliefs as he does, and I would take that. I think I know what you're going with this.

Sorry, I meant to pose this question to anyone. I think there would be all kinds of different answers, whether you are religious or not.

I think I would like to extend my life, if I could remain healthy, and not be a drain on society. I wonder if our brains are equipped to handle another 100 years of memories and experiences?

[Crazy Bacon Legs]

What a silly topic. The answer is obvious.

All enlightened people know that, if you are a fierce warrior like me, you shall sit for all eternity at Odin's side in Valhalla.

All unbelievers will perish in the armpit of the cosmic giant.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Crazy Bacon Legs

What a silly topic. The answer is obvious.

All enlightened people know that, if you are a fierce warrior like me, you shall sit for all eternity at Odin's side in Valhalla.

All unbelievers will perish in the armpit of the cosmic giant.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.

To do that, I would have to kill you, spear your soul with a grappling hook, follow you to Valhalla, and then kill you again just to see you drowning in a sea of god sweat.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by troutman

If I could offer you a pill that would extend your life by 100 years with good health, would you take it?

I definitely would. There's way more great stuff to experience in this lifetime than I'm going to have time to do. Even another hundred years wouldn't be enough time to do all the awesome stuff that's possible.

[troutman]

http://www.jewishtvnetwork.com/?bcpi...d=802338105001

In this recent Whizin Center for Continuine Education program, leading advocates for atheism, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris square off against Newsweek top rabbis, David Wolpe and Bradley Artson Shavit to determine what may or may not happen in the hereafter.

The possibility of an afterlife has challenged believers and atheists alike for centuries. Because its very nature defies conclusive definitions or proof, it remains a heated topic for debate and exploration. This debate is moderated by the Editor-in-Chief of the Jewish Journal, Rob Eshman.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by arloiginla

To be honest I have no idea. In Adam's state I would have been naturally good instead of evil so it's impossible to even hypothetically know that. I hope I wouldn't have chosen what Adam and Eve did...but who knows.

If the account of Genesis is an accurate accounting of the facts of human creation, Eve is the single greatest hero to have ever lived. To reject God and to make what is so clearly the morally right choice would have been the hardest thing a human has ever done.

Forget Jesus, if the Bible is right, I would worship Eve.

[Crazy Bacon Legs]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To do that, I would have to kill you, spear your soul with a grappling hook, follow you to Valhalla, and then kill you again just to see you drowning in a sea of god sweat.

Pffft. You must be a Reform Odinist.

Heretic.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Crazy Bacon Legs

Pffft. You must be a Reform Odinist.

Heretic.

Wrong

I'm part of the temple of Odin and the Later day demi-gods

[Pinner]

Originally Posted by troutman

I wonder if our brains are equipped to handle another 100 years of memories and experiences?

Like a lawyer, you only ask a question that you have the answer for.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by troutman

Sorry, I meant to pose this question to anyone. I think there would be all kinds of different answers, whether you are religious or not.

I think I would like to extend my life, if I could remain healthy, and not be a drain on society. I wonder if our brains are equipped to handle another 100 years of memories and experiences?

Hmmm... so when would you become a senior citizen? Is 70 the new 30?

[Dion]

Frisbeetarianism

The philosophy that when you die, your soul goes up on a roof and gets stuck. (George Carlin)

[Thor]

Originally Posted by troutman

http://www.jewishtvnetwork.com/?bcpi...d=802338105001

In this recent Whizin Center for Continuine Education program, leading advocates for atheism, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris square off against Newsweek top rabbis, David Wolpe and Bradley Artson Shavit to determine what may or may not happen in the hereafter.

The possibility of an afterlife has challenged believers and atheists alike for centuries. Because its very nature defies conclusive definitions or proof, it remains a heated topic for debate and exploration. This debate is moderated by the Editor-in-Chief of the Jewish Journal, Rob Eshman.

That was a really entertaining debate, Jews are so close to being on our side, they just hang on to the last remaining threads.