Your thoughts on life after death

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Call me a cynic, but promising people a big payoff after they die is like holding a lottery and never announcing the name of the winner.

I am a winner! A fool goes into court without knowing what judgement is coming down. Those who claim to be Christians and don't know their standing before God is ignorant of scriptures. The Bible is there so you can know:

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[dissentowner]

When I made this thread Bible quotes were not what I really had in mind.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Maybe i'll be a big elephant in my next life

Is that if you're bad or good? 'Cause I don't want to be the one to ruin it for you, but I'm just saying:

Cocka-roach.

[Savvy27]

Maybe a lottery doesn't quite fit. Let's call it a scavenger hunt and keep in mind that even if you find all of the objects, you haven't won the prize until you actually have the prize. (We can even allow that your efforts have driven you to develop your object finding skills and improved you as a person, but frankly if you were doing this to improve your living skills without an eye on that eternal reward you'd be studying philosophy and exposing yourself to many streams of thought rather than just the one)

I'm sure that you do believe you are a winner-to-be now and will enjoy your reward after death. I also believe that you are certain there are many other winners that have gone before you. I just don't believe that there are any actual winnings.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

I'm sure that you do believe you are a winner-to-be now and will enjoy your reward after death. I also believe that you are certain there are many other winners that have gone before you. I just don't believe that there are any actual winnings.

Somebody disagrees.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Anyways, I'll end the ramble and get back on topic here. I believe that when I die I will go to heaven and be with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Knowing that I have my eternal salvation secured makes living life a lot easier. Having that hope makes this life more worthwhile and I'm less likely to live it selfishly. Because if there was no life after death I'd do whatever I want on this earth - nobody else matters since we are only here a short time, may as well live it up for my own pleasure.

If what you're saying is that you're only considerate of others because you believe in an afterlife where there will be some sort of consequences based upon your actions in this life, I would say that I don't like your reasons very much.

Frankly, although I'm an atheist, I think that people's values are real. There may be historical or genetic explanations for why people have values, but they don't really need to be justified by something like consequences in the afterlife. I try to be nice to people because I think that's a good thing to do and I'm happier living with myself when I act in that way. Being nice to people is simply something that I value, regardless of any thoughts about an afterlife.

Belief in god might require faith, but people's values are real whether you have faith in them or not.

[puckluck]

My heaven would be playing hockey for the rest of eternity. Also plowing lots of fat chicks because I'm guessing in heaven there are no morals and even fat chicks are hot, and I've always wanted to plow a fat one.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by photon

I'm fully aware of my wife's existence and still love her as a choice instead of an obligation.

If God chooses to hide his existence from me and I act based on that, that's his responsibility not mine.

Life would be devoid of free will. According to religion this life is a test. What's the point of writing a test if you know the answers?

[arloiginla]

Originally Posted by photon

So? Why is the difference in nature between God and my wife germane to the question of knowing God exists removing freedom to choose to love God or not?

Because your wife is a human being like you, and therefore on an equal standing. My point about God is that if he was visible in a human sense all the time is that we'd be forced to acknowledge Him as our Creator and it wouldn't happen out of our free will in which case we wouldn't follow out of love and faith but rather out of obligation.

Why? I don't know of any reason why better than "might makes right", and that's not a very good reason.

Because when a creator creates something, it is in order to fulfill a specific purpose, one devised by the creator. If God created us, then He has a purpose in mind for us, making us accountable to Him and to that purpose.

The #1 reason most reject him is because we are accountable to him? That doesn't make any sense though, to be accountable first we must know what we are accountable for, and then to whom or what we are accountable, but if god only reveals himself partially then neither of those conditions are met.

Why are the conditions not met? God reveals enough of Himself to us in His creation, and hopefully in some of His people, that we will be without excuse on judgment day if we chose to refuse to acknowledge His existence. I'm not going to quote Scripture here as nobody will want that, but everything around us - the earth we live in - required intelligence in order to be created, just like any invention that a person makes. It doesn't just happen by random chance either. Problem is we attribute everything to "science" nowadays which was also something He created in order to understand His world better...we are going backwards and saying science is above God not vice versa.

Bottom line, it's silly to take a "God exists and we are subject to Him but I don't care, I'll do whatever I want in life." That would be an inconvenience and a problem so it's easier to say "God doesn't exist." and attribute this entire world to random chance instead. That's why I said most people don't want to be accountable to God. Just trying to explain that comment.

It doesn't matter how he does it, if he's omniscient then he knows what amount of and what kind of revelation it would take to have someone accept him, and if he chooses not to provide that then he's the one accountable for the consequences, not the individual.

As I explained, He's provided enough of Himself that we will be without excuse, but also little enough that we have to have a bit of faith (as tiny as a mustard seed according to the Bible) in Him. As one part says, You have seen and believed, but blessed are those who have not seen and still believe. Anyways, no more Scripture quotes from me.

[arloiginla]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

If what you're saying is that you're only considerate of others because you believe in an afterlife where there will be some sort of consequences based upon your actions in this life, I would say that I don't like your reasons very much.

Frankly, although I'm an atheist, I think that people's values are real. There may be historical or genetic explanations for why people have values, but they don't really need to be justified by something like consequences in the afterlife. I try to be nice to people because I think that's a good thing to do and I'm happier living with myself when I act in that way. Being nice to people is simply something that I value, regardless of any thoughts about an afterlife.

Belief in god might require faith, but people's values are real whether you have faith in them or not.

I believe people's values are real because they are subject to a Moral Law. Even little children know right from wrong quite often. The difference between that subconscious, inherent moral law and any other law (like gravity for example) is that we have the choice to disobey the Moral Law. This is where "having a conscience" comes from.

People have values because they generally, religious or not, have some sort of concept of right and wrong (heck that's why we have government laws) and that will manifest itself regardless of whether a higher power is ordering them or not. Most of us are "good" to some extent simply because with maturity comes following that conscience more often and "doing the right thing." Human consequences come into play too. We know that if we are a ###### to a friend, we will likely lose that friend. Has nothing to do with God, but most of us who care about our friends wouldn't want to hurt them.

[photon]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

Life would be devoid of free will. According to religion this life is a test. What's the point of writing a test if you know the answers?

Knowing that there is a test and that there's someone administering the test doesn't remove your free will.

What's the point of having a test at all? Especially a contrived one.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Because your wife is a human being like you, and therefore on an equal standing.

That doesn't explain why knowing she exists leaves me with free will, while knowing God existed would remove my free will.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

My point about God is that if he was visible in a human sense all the time is that we'd be forced to acknowledge Him as our Creator and it wouldn't happen out of our free will

So? I know my parents created me, that doesn't remove my free will. It's just a fact.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

in which case we wouldn't follow out of love and faith but rather out of obligation.

Knowledge of God's existence wouldn't turn it into obligation, anymore than knowing my parents created me obligates me to follow them, or knowing Harper is the Prime Minister of my country obligates me to follow him.

You can't just say "God's a special case" without showing why God is a special case.

And I'll tell you what would obligate me.. knowledge that if I don't follow out of "love and faith" that I will be punished for eternity.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Because when a creator creates something, it is in order to fulfill a specific purpose, one devised by the creator. If God created us, then He has a purpose in mind for us, making us accountable to Him and to that purpose.

So basically what I said then, "might makes right" which is a moral failure.

So a creator creates a human, gives it free will, and then sets up a test that they will fail (and be punished for) if they choose something other than what the creator has pre-determined. Where's the free choice again?

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Why are the conditions not met? God reveals enough of Himself to us in His creation, and hopefully in some of His people, that we will be without excuse on judgment day if we chose to refuse to acknowledge His existence.

So God doesn't reveal himself because it would violate free will, but he does reveal enough to convince some to acknowledge his existence, but that doesn't violate free will why?

Every other religion says the same thing, there's enough revelation and enough evidence to meet the salvation criteria, and I've seen nothing that gives one God any more merit than any other, so I would say no the conditions are not met.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

I'm not going to quote Scripture here as nobody will want that, but everything around us - the earth we live in - required intelligence in order to be created, just like any invention that a person makes.

Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Evidence shows us contrary. Intelligence would be able to do a MUCH better job.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

It doesn't just happen by random chance either.

No one claims it does.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Problem is we attribute everything to "science" nowadays which was also something He created in order to understand His world better...we are going backwards and saying science is above God not vice versa.

No one attributes anything to science, science is a methodology, not a force.

Science explains how things happen. Science doesn't make the moon orbit the earth, science explains how that happens.

If science happens to explain something that was previous attributed to God, that's not science's fault. People used to think floods and lightning were divine in origin because they couldn't explain them, now we know better.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

Bottom line, it's silly to take a "God exists and we are subject to Him but I don't care, I'll do whatever I want in life." That would be an inconvenience and a problem so it's easier to say "God doesn't exist." and attribute this entire world to random chance instead. That's why I said most people don't want to be accountable to God. Just trying to explain that comment.

This is so old and tired, it's just a contrived attribution of motivation a believer will use to come up with why someone doesn't believe. It's offensive. "Non believers really do believe but they don't want to be accountable so they just say they don't believe God exists".

Are you saying you don't believe in Allah, Vishnu, and Wotan because you don't want to be subject to them and just do whatever you want in life?

And no one attributes the entire world to random chance, that's such an overt misrepresentation of the non-believer's position it's poisoning the well.

Originally Posted by arloiginla

As I explained, He's provided enough of Himself that we will be without excuse, but also little enough that we have to have a bit of faith (as tiny as a mustard seed according to the Bible) in Him. As one part says, You have seen and believed, but blessed are those who have not seen and still believe. Anyways, no more Scripture quotes from me.

You realize this amounts to tautology right? There's nothing here except that "He's provided enough because he's provided enough".

I say he hasn't provided enough, in fact he's provided nothing. I've never been provided with anything unambiguous.

And that's ignoring the moral bankruptcy of the whole situation in the first place. In a multiple choice test, I have options A, B, and C, but if I choose anything other than B it's eternal punishment. Feel free to choose whatever you want.

That's not free will, that's coercion. That's like me going up to the girl I like and asking her to love me, she can if she wants, but if she doesn't I'll chain her in the basement.

[ResAlien]

Anything that may happen after I die will be beyond my current comprehension level, or will be complete nothingness. I dunno. Weak agnosticism FTW.

[CarlW]

Spending my hell notes, and being served by the maid servants and using my spiritual IPAD that my family will burn for me.

[Weiser Wonder]

It's that time of a religion thread again, the Photon smackdown.

[Dion]

I had an interesting experience after my father died in 2000. When I visited mom and dad i'd sleep in the guest room in the basement. Dad would always come down and give the door a hard rap to check if I was still sleeping. Anyway the morning after the funeral I hear the same distinct sound. I got up to check and both my brother and sister will still sleeping, as well as my mother. It spooked me and I didn't give it much thought.

A week later I showed up to help mother deal with my fathers things. The next morning I hear that same distinct sound again. This time I saw my father standing there looking at me. It lasted about 5 seconds and then he was gone. After that I never heard that sound again. I have long suspect it was my father letting me know things are ok and he was happy to see I was helping mother take care of things.

[pylon]

I am a spiritual atheist if that makes any sense. I kinda believe there may be things we just simply can't wrap our heads around, and are so far beyond our understanding that traditional science as we know it, could never explain them. Do I believe in pearly white gates, and a big old man with a beard, and flying around in the clouds.... no. That is almost ignorant, and to discredit every other religion on the planet by saying its our way or the highway, is also arrogant.

I wouldn't say I believe, but I am open to the idea, that we may continue on in an alternate state of energy, or in a parralel or higher dimension per se. Maybe there is something.... who knows.

I have also had those dreams that seemed like they lasted days, only to wake up, and find out I had only nodded off for a few minutes. Perhaps, before you die, you have a dream that may last what seems like an infinite length of time. I have read some articles that claim that they have recorded large spikes in brain activity just prior to death... perhaps this is one of those dreams?

To simply write it off, and say, "nope... thats it, when your gone your gone." to me seems just as arrogant as saying your will absolutely go to heaven or hell, based on the path you take in life.

Ray Kurzweil said not so long ago, "the first person to live to 200 years old, has already been born." I think it is safe to say, if we don't self destruct in 200 years time, there may be a lot of options to chase immortality by then with genetic engineering, and humans integrating with technology. Death may not be as much to ponder.

I personally believe we will have brain uploading, life spans that are counted in thousands, instead of hundreds of years, and perhaps the option of immortality, at least defined by how long the known universe decides to last. Using Tron Legacy as a bit of a layman example, what if your consciousness could be put into a virtual world in some sort of mainframe? Could you have seconds count as hundreds of years based on your perception? Percieved time could be greatly altered, as you are no longer bound to the physical world.

Either way, if you were able to see 1000 years into the future, I truly believe you wouldn't even recognize humans as you know them today.

Wow, that went all over the map, but it is a topic I ponder frequently.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by pylon

To simply write it off, and say, "nope... thats it, when your gone your gone." to me seems just as arrogant as saying your will absolutely go to heaven or hell, based on the path you take in life.

Consider this.... If there is such a thing as Hell, with most of us going there, we'll be too damn busy shaking hands with friends to know where we are

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by arloiginla

I believe people's values are real because they are subject to a Moral Law. Even little children know right from wrong quite often. The difference between that subconscious, inherent moral law and any other law (like gravity for example) is that we have the choice to disobey the Moral Law. This is where "having a conscience" comes from.

People have values because they generally, religious or not, have some sort of concept of right and wrong (heck that's why we have government laws) and that will manifest itself regardless of whether a higher power is ordering them or not. Most of us are "good" to some extent simply because with maturity comes following that conscience more often and "doing the right thing." Human consequences come into play too. We know that if we are a ###### to a friend, we will likely lose that friend. Has nothing to do with God, but most of us who care about our friends wouldn't want to hurt them.

I can dig this more than what you were saying before. Your second paragraph is a lot more realistic than that first post of yours I quoted, and I pretty much agree with what you're saying there. I still don't buy the notion of a moral law that is worth capitalizing though and don't see why that needs to enter into the question of people's values and beliefs about right and wrong. I think good enough explanations can be given without looking to a Moral Law.

Anyways, I can agree with following religious beliefs as a practical life choice on the basis of it making things easier and happier. That's a pretty sensible sort of thing to do. It doesn't seem to work for me, but I can see how it would be nice if it did and I could believe in a happy place after I die. According to the way I do actually understand the world though, it seems sad to me to think people could miss out on the only life they do have in order to make sure they're well prepared for a second one that never comes.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by jammies

Is that if you're bad or good? 'Cause I don't want to be the one to ruin it for you, but I'm just saying:

Cocka-roach.

Elephants are a good thing. They are treasured, spoiled and live long lives

[troutman]

Originally Posted by pylon

I personally believe we will have brain uploading, life spans that are counted in thousands, instead of hundreds of years, and perhaps the option of immortality, at least defined by how long the known universe decides to last. Using Tron Legacy as a bit of a layman example, what if your consciousness could be put into a virtual world in some sort of mainframe? Could you have seconds count as hundreds of years based on your perception? Percieved time could be greatly altered, as you are no longer bound to the physical world.

You see this a lot in science fiction, but I wonder if our consciousness can exist outside the brain.