Ring Road To Nowhere

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Yes, but... a road through Tsuu T'ina land to Sarcee Trail for the ring road does nothing for the people in the deep SW trying to get downtown or center city. There's some heavy traffic there that still needs to be dealt with. A 37th Street road won't solve that problem, but it will certainly help.

I think that a ring road through the Tsuu Tina would help commutes in the deep SW immensely. All of the trips heading from that area to the W and NW will no longer need to go on 14th/Glenmore to get around the reservoir, which leaves more room on those roads for intra-city traffic. Plus, the pseudo-bypass that we currently have (the route that people take if they would rather not go into the city) is the Trans Canada, Sarcee, Glenmore, 14th, Anderson, Macleod (although I believe that a lot of truck traffic continues on Glenmore until Deerfoot). All of that traffic would use the ring road instead.

I see it as definitely either/or. We won't have a Weaslehead road and a Tsuu Tina road, even if the Weaslehead one is a smaller 4-lane road.

Edit: And I'm not saying that 14th wouldn't/shouldn't one day become free-flowing, for example. I think that a "proper" Tsuu Tina ring road and some eventual upgrades to 14th and the other roads in the deep SW would be the best scenario. 37th would be expensive, controversial, and not far enough from either 14th and the (hopefully) Tsuu Tina route to be easily justified.

[Tron_fdc]

This ring road is exhausting. I'm at the point where I would do this Australian style and build a toll road.

From what I understand municipal governments take bids on building a toll road, and allow the company bidding to recover their cost by collecting tolls for (x) years. At the expiry of the contract, the government takes over the toll collection.

I's be fine with that. If people want to use it, and there is enough traffic (although this could be the problem) then I'd go that route and bypass the Tsu Tina completely.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

I think that a ring road through the Tsuu Tina would help commutes in the deep SW immensely. All of the trips heading from that area to the W and NW will no longer need to go on 14th/Glenmore to get around the reservoir, which leaves more room on those roads for intra-city traffic. Plus, the pseudo-bypass that we currently have (the route that people take if they would rather not go into the city) is the Trans Canada, Sarcee, Glenmore, 14th, Anderson, Macleod (although I believe that a lot of truck traffic continues on Glenmore until Deerfoot). All of that traffic would use the ring road instead.

I see it as definitely either/or. We won't have a Weaslehead road and a Tsuu Tina road, even if the Weaslehead one is a smaller 4-lane road.

Edit: And I'm not saying that 14th wouldn't/shouldn't one day become free-flowing, for example. I think that a "proper" Tsuu Tina ring road and some eventual upgrades to 14th and the other roads in the deep SW would be the best scenario.

That I agree to. If 37th is not built, 14th still needs to be upgraded.

One of the biggest problems is essentially the only way to go from the deep SW to the western half of the city is to be funneled through Glenmore. The ring road will be a dream come true in that scenario.

But the posters suggesting downtown/central city headed traffic continue up Sarcee to Bow Trail or Memorial aren't thinking right, that simply pushes the problem elsewhere and further clogs up 17th, Bow Trail, Memorial, etc. no one is going to do that, they'll still try to take Crowchild. The ring road is for people trying to bypass city congestion, not just move the congestion elsewhere.

If 14th isn't upgraded, 37th still is a good idea to redirect deep south traffic around 14th and Macleod.

[burn_this_city]

I think the city and province should tell Big Plume that ship has sailed. Run it down 37th street, cut off the access to the casino, and decorate the overpasses with concrete shapes that vaguely look like middle fingers. The amount of compensation they were offered previously was more than fair, it was obscene.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I think the city and province should tell Big Plume that ship has sailed. Run it down 37th street, cut off the access to the casino, and decorate the overpasses with concrete shapes that vaguely look like middle fingers. The amount of compensation they were offered previously was more than fair, it was obscene.

No kidding.

For what we offered them we could build a freaking tunnel under their land.

/hyperbole

[SebC]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I think this is nothing other than smoke from Tsu Tina. If you arent negotiating with anyone who has any power whatsoever then what is the point. What they should do is completely bypass the band leadership, add say 5 mil to the deal to make it different and then bring it to the actual people who vote. Hold public forums, assault the reserve with advertising, billboards etc. There must be a way to force a referendum without the councils consent - that is the road I would go if you want to give the Tsu Tina one last option.

No way should money be added. If anything, take money away. Show them that they're nuts if they thought rejecting the previous offer would lead to a higher offer.

"Here is a pile of money. The longer you wait, the smaller it gets."

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I think the city and province should tell Big Plume that ship has sailed. Run it down 37th street, cut off the access to the casino, and decorate the overpasses with concrete shapes that vaguely look like middle fingers. The amount of compensation they were offered previously was more than fair, it was obscene.

I don't think the level of compensation was the issue...

[Lester]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I think the city and province should tell Big Plume that ship has sailed. Run it down 37th street, cut off the access to the casino, and decorate the overpasses with concrete shapes that vaguely look like middle fingers. The amount of compensation they were offered previously was more than fair, it was obscene.

Things will move real quick once casino access is threatened. Will someone have the balls to do this?

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by SebC

No way should money be added. If anything, take money away. Show them that they're nuts if they thought rejecting the previous offer would lead to a higher offer.

"Here is a pile of money. The longer you wait, the smaller it gets."

You do realize it was only 250mil cash right. The rest was Federal Goverment land on the west end of the reserve that isnt worth anything to anyone. The amount of homes they whould need to buy out would likely come close to that and that doesnt include the extra price of a bridge if 34th is the option.

If I was Tsu Tina I wouldnt be selling the land, I would be leasing it to make sure the ring road keeps funding the bands future growth.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Lester

Things will move real quick once casino access is threatened. Will someone have the balls to do this?

As indicated earlier I dont think that is legal (Indian Act I assume). For emergency vehicles etc they need to keep access. It doesnt have to be convenient but access does need to be provided to the city.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

As indicated earlier I dont think that is legal (Indian Act I assume). For emergency vehicles etc they need to keep access. It doesnt have to be convenient but access does need to be provided to the city.

It has been said that the only access to the reserve that is legally required to be provided by the city is at Anderson Road.

[BurningYears]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

As indicated earlier I dont think that is legal (Indian Act I assume). For emergency vehicles etc they need to keep access. It doesnt have to be convenient but access does need to be provided to the city.

beat to it

[SebC]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

You do realize it was only 250mil cash right. The rest was Federal Goverment land on the west end of the reserve that isnt worth anything to anyone. The amount of homes they whould need to buy out would likely come close to that and that doesnt include the extra price of a bridge if 34th is the option.

If I was Tsu Tina I wouldnt be selling the land, I would be leasing it to make sure the ring road keeps funding the bands future growth.

Could a higher offer from the province still make sense? Sure, but the value of what's being given up the Tsuu T'ina is certainly less that the compensation they'd be getting as well. It's a bilateral monopoly. There is benefit above cost to be had for both sides but no single "market price", so they're negociating over how the benefit above cost is split.

I think the proposed deal is win-win for the city and the Tsuu T'ina... but if they don't think that or they think they can keep pushing us higher and higher the deal is never gonna close. They're playing hardball, so the province needs to play hardball too.

If the band wants cash flow instead of a lump sum, they can invest the 250mil. The province should not make any agreements, such as a lease, that is not perpetual with cost certainty. We don't want to get into a situation where the band can hold us over a barrel to keep the ring road.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

You do realize it was only 250mil cash right. The rest was Federal Goverment land on the west end of the reserve that isnt worth anything to anyone. The amount of homes they whould need to buy out would likely come close to that and that doesnt include the extra price of a bridge if 34th is the option.

If I was Tsu Tina I wouldnt be selling the land, I would be leasing it to make sure the ring road keeps funding the bands future growth.

The original plan had fairly large chunk of land that still belonged to the reserve that was "inside" the ring road, and would have thousands of Calgarians driving by every day. They easily could have developed that to ensure the financail stabilty of the reserve long into the future.

The quotes from Big Plume seem to say, "come to us with a plan that requires LESS of our land." Meaning that the compensation would also be less.

We could see if they would go for it if the province came up with a plan to build up the 37th street alignment, but instead of cutting through lakeview and glamorgan to get around the corner at Glenmore/37th, they could take a nice smooth curve in the reserve land. That would take up just a small fraction of the land originally required, and could preserve every house in the city of Calgary.

They would have a whole lot less prime development land that way, but that's up to them.

[Jimmy Stang]

^ Good point, Thneed. There is a possibility of a hybrid solution here. No bulldozers to Lakeview/Glamorgan, a gentle curve to maintain highway speeds, room for expansion in the future, and a smaller portion of reserve land.

[Old Yeller]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The quotes from Big Plume seem to say, "come to us with a plan that requires LESS of our land." Meaning that the compensation would also be less.

We could see if they would go for it if the province came up with a plan to build up the 37th street alignment, but instead of cutting through lakeview and glamorgan to get around the corner at Glenmore/37th, they could take a nice smooth curve in the reserve land. That would take up just a small fraction of the land originally required, and could preserve every house in the city of Calgary.

They would have a whole lot less prime development land that way, but that's up to them.

That would make sense, but at the same time from the interviews I've heard with Stelmach, the only way the tribe gets back to the bargaining table is on the original deal... unless that's just more posturing?

Was there ever an implied deadline of when the Chief was going to talk to the tribe and get back to the city/province?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Old Yeller

That would make sense, but at the same time from the interviews I've heard with Stelmach, the only way the tribe gets back to the bargaining table is on the original deal... unless that's just more posturing?

Was there ever an implied deadline of when the Chief was going to talk to the tribe and get back to the city/province?

For the province, doing an alternate deal like what I thought of, would save them a whole lot of hassle. If the band offered them that, there's no way that the province doesn't take it.

Right now, the Province doesn't really have any options that are even decent, never mind "good." The option I mentioned is at least decent. It still invloves an expensive bridge over the weaselhead, but it doesn't involve the cost and hassle of expropriating hundreds of homes, and the backlash from doing so.

[Jayems]

Anyone here got updates for the SE leg?

[Old Yeller]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

For the province, doing an alternate deal like what I thought of, would save them a whole lot of hassle. If the band offered them that, there's no way that the province doesn't take it.

Right now, the Province doesn't really have any options that are even decent, never mind "good." The option I mentioned is at least decent. It still invloves an expensive bridge over the weaselhead, but it doesn't involve the cost and hassle of expropriating hundreds of homes, and the backlash from doing so.

We're probably waiting for a new premiere before anything goes ahead... aren't we?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Anyone here got updates for the SE leg?

Took the "temporary" ring road a couple nights ago, and you can see work paralleling 84th street. They are building up the hill for the flyover at 61st Ave, and it looks like there is work happening on Glenmore Trail. The interchange at 22x/Cranston/MacKenzie Town is well on its way too.