Is Pelech now officially a bust?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

The other thing is we had no AHL team at the time Sutter took over, so I think he was trying to make safe draft picks in order to help stock the farm. Once that was done he became more open to drafting more chancy picks with more offensive upside.

See, I don't buy this. You don't draft to fill a safe AHL team, you draft for the big club and hire AHL lifers to fill out the roster. So it's either horrible drafting or horrible vision. Most likely the combo.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Whichever scout found T.J. Brodie ....yeah don't fire that guy.

Probably Tom Webster.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by kirant

Weren't most of them let go last summer?

"Most" would be a bit of an exaggeration IMO. A few were changed.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by nik-

See, I don't buy this. You don't draft to fill a safe AHL team, you draft for the big club and hire AHL lifers to fill out the roster. So it's either horrible drafting or horrible vision. Most likely the combo.

Well the farm team is the future, so if the main players are AHL lifers, we maybe have a great AHL team but nothing of substance coming up. At the time Sutter went for quantity in the safe picks over the gamble of quality. It's always an argument of do you want a home run hitter who strikes out a lot, or do you want a .300 hitter at the plate. At the time I think Sutter made a good decision. Now that we've got a good base, it's time to gamble more.

Another thing, Sutter traded off draft choices for immediate help. I think this was a good thing at first because the Flames needed immediate help but he became a little too loose with this policy recently and it was one of the things that brought him down. This also cut in too his draft picks and I think effected his policy of taking the safe pick. The more picks you have, the more you can gamble.

[Hack&Lube]

Given how Phaneuf has turned out, the Flames 1st round draft history in the past 20 years has been simply awful.

Trevor Kidd
Niklas Sundblad
Cory Stillman
Jesper Mattsson
Chris Dingman
Denis Gauthier
Derek Morris
Daniel Tkaczuk
Rico Fata
Oleg Saprykin
Brent Krahn
Chuck Kobasew
Eric Nystrom
Dion Phaneuf
Kris Chucko
Matt Pelech
Leland Irving
Mikael Backlund
Greg Nemisz
Tim Erixon

I would argue that Stillman might be our best first rounder in the past 20 years. I still have high hopes for Nemisz and Erixon and maybe Irving. Backlund is never going to be more than a 3rd/2nd liner.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

That's what I understand.

The other thing is we had no AHL team at the time Sutter took over, so I think he was trying to make safe draft picks in order to help stock the farm. Once that was done he became more open to drafting more chancy picks with more offensive upside.

Sorry Vulcan, I like you as a poster, but this is a stupid statement. You draft for the NHL - not the farm.

I could probably create you a roster in Abbotsford that would challenge for the Calder Cup each year (just look at the Moose's roster or Chicago Wolves right now) really easily, but if you do that, you're just shooting yourself in the foot when trying to develop quality guys.

You can buy AHL fillers quite easily.

[koop]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well the farm team is the future, so if the main players are AHL lifers, we maybe have a great AHL team but nothing of substance coming up. At the time Sutter went for quantity in the safe picks over the gamble of quality. It's always an argument of do you want a home run hitter who strikes out a lot, or do you want a .300 hitter at the plate. At the time I think Sutter made a good decision. Now that we've got a good base, it's time to gamble more.

The idea behind building a strong farm team is to be able to call up a player for any role.... if you need a shutdown dman, offensive dman, checking forward, top 6 fill in, etc. there is a guy down there who can fill that role. I would buy this stuff about a "good base" if this had actually happened, but it hasn't. This team has relied on waiver pick-ups and veterans acquired through free agency or trade to fill roles that a team with a "good base" on the farm would be able to fill internally.

[Cactus Jack]

I would say so. Six years and he's hasn't played more than, what, a dozen games? There must be a reason we alway bring in depth instead of promoting from within. Carson, Mikelson, Staios, Johnson, etc.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

"Most" would be a bit of an exaggeration IMO. A few were changed.

Huh. I was told all but a few...Thanks.

[Cactus Jack]

The drafting from 07 on looks like a little better (well, definitely 08 and not so much 2010) and there is reason to be optimistic, but it's too early to say so for sure. Besides, even if Wahl, Erixsson, Brodie, Nemisz and Howse develop, it's not like any of them are likely to be superstars. Still, better to draft 2-3 line forwards and 2nd and 3rd pairing d than to overpay guys like Stajan, Hagman, Staios, et al.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Sorry Vulcan, I like you as a poster, but this is a stupid statement. You draft for the NHL - not the farm.

I could probably create you a roster in Abbotsford that would challenge for the Calder Cup each year (just look at the Moose's roster or Chicago Wolves right now) really easily, but if you do that, you're just shooting yourself in the foot when trying to develop quality guys.

You can buy AHL fillers quite easily.

Glad you like me.


Sure you draft for the NHL but the competition between the players at the AHL level is supposed to get them ready for the NHL. You try to limit the gambles. You may limit your home runs but in the long run, it should pay off with decent players. We needed young warm bodies with character, in the AHL. Some forget that the AHL is a development league and it can't be stocked by an all veteran line up.

The other issue that will be of significance is an American Hockey League rule limiting the number of veterans that the team can dress. To break down the rule, the Wolves have seven players, including Chelios, who have played in excess of 320 games. In general, only one will be allowed to dress.

Read more: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chic...#ixzz1FPL5Klbb

also

First, veteran rules do not apply to goalies.
-- Second, there needs to be at least 12 non-veterans on the ice, unless there are fewer than 18 skaters.
-- Third, skaters who have played more than 260 qualified games are considered veterans.
-- Fourth, skaters who have played more than 260 qualified games, but less than 321 qualified games are considered veteran exempt. In other words, if a team dresses 18 skaters in a game, up to six can be veterans, no more than two can be from the exempt category.
-- Fifth, a team can dress five in the lineup plus one exemption. If you dress two exemptions then one becomes a veteran.

The Chicago Wolves have the following players on their bench, all veterans:

• Steve McCarthy
• Jason Krog
• Brian Sipotz
• John Pohl
• Kevin Doell - exempt
• Josh Gratton - exempt

These veterans are often also paid by the AHL club, one with lots of money (comparatively) such as Winnipeg or Chicago, not a struggling team at the box office like Omaha, QC or Abbotsford.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by koop

The idea behind building a strong farm team is to be able to call up a player for any role.... if you need a shutdown dman, offensive dman, checking forward, top 6 fill in, etc. there is a guy down there who can fill that role. I would buy this stuff about a "good base" if this had actually happened, but it hasn't. This team has relied on waiver pick-ups and veterans acquired through free agency or trade to fill roles that a team with a "good base" on the farm would be able to fill internally.

This is one of the problems Darryl had, not trusting the players he drafted. It wasn't always because the "base" wasn't good enough, it was because Darryl never trusted them and this has probably cost us. A good example was Giordano.

Hey, I agree with the truism, "You can't teach skill" but at the time I agreed with Sutter's philosophy but now it's time to start taking some chances and go for skill above character but it's also said, "you can't teach size" and probably this was one of the reasons for drafting Pelech.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I'm of the opinion that who cares.

Guys like Carson, Mikkelsson and Pardy are all better than Pelech and were basically free or a mid round pick. We have a bunch of other players coming up, and having a couple bust (Pelech, Negrin) isn't the end of the world.

I'm off the opinion that we blew a chance to get a good player, whether or not we need Pelech to pan out. That matters.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

This is one of the problems Darryl had, not trusting the players he drafted. It wasn't always because the "base" wasn't good enough, it was because Darryl never trusted them and this has probably cost us. A good example was Giordano.

Hey, I agree with the truism, "You can't teach skill" but at the time I agreed with Sutter's philosophy but now it's time to start taking some chances and go for skill above character but it's also said, "you can't teach size" and probably this was one of the reasons for drafting Pelech.

If I may nitpick for a second:

Gio is not a good example of Darryl not trusting the players he drafted, because Gio was an undrafted UFA.

In theory, Pelech is a teachable guy. OHL scholastic player of the year.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

This is one of the problems Darryl had, not trusting the players he drafted. It wasn't always because the "base" wasn't good enough, it was because Darryl never trusted them and this has probably cost us. A good example was Giordano.

I don't agree with this at all. Didn't he trust Backlund? He basically gave him the keys to the dome the first day he got here from Sweden and put him on the ice in an NHL game. Backlund wasn't even a pro, he was still a Major Junior. Then he went around Kelowna and Abbotsford and was called up a few times until he stuck. He still only has 8 goals in 80 games played.

Sutter signed Gio, not drafting him. It was a great signing but he didn't think Giordano's development was complete at the time and wouldn't give him a 1 way so Gio bolted to Russia. That actually improved his game and finished his development. Gio is still grateful to Sutter for taking a chance on him. His new contract is still much more valuable than any other defenseman's on this team.

The other players were given chances every year at training camp and preseason and some even got NHL games. They just didn't cut it. You can just trust players who don't cut it. There's a small chance the NHL exposure will improve them but it's still a much higher chance that it's a detriment to a team for guys who proved to still be mediocre in the AHL to be with the big club taking up a roster spot when other proven NHL players are better in those positions.

[Vulcan]

yeah, Hack&lube, that's why Feaster had to make a point of telling the farmhands they were going to get a chance at call ups, instead of stocking up on no name vet plugs.

Come off it guys you know that I know that Giordano along with Richie Regehr weren't drafted but they might as well have been. As for Backlund, yeah Sutter had his golden boys including Phaneuf and now maybe Brodie but in my opinion some of the slugs Sutter brought in could have easily been replaced by farmhands.

[FlamesAddiction]

I remember when Sutter was fired as coach of the Sharks. One of the biggest criticisms of him then was that he didn't trust young players.

I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that he didn't like the idea of trying young players in important roles. I also think it's probably true that we have drafted very few young players that deserved it.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by kirant

Huh. I was told all but a few...Thanks.

Well I'm having trouble googling the changes. But the Flames have a whole whack of amateur scouts including some full time and some part time. These include scouts for various regions of North America and various regions of Europe.

I believe maybe 3-4 were let go and a few hired? That would still probably only constitute a 33% turnover probably. A scouting staff is probably at least 12 people including full and part time I would guess.

Last summer was not the only summer some changes to the scouts were made. But I think it may have been the most significant.

If anyone can find me an article referencing which scouts were canned I can try and give you an idea of what % that was and if they were important scouts. Certainly Tod Button is still around.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

On the OP's topic, Pelech isn't really officially a bust until we don't re-sign him or we give up on him and his development.

That said, it is looking bleak for him.

On a happier note, we got Chris Breen for nothing due to good scouting and he looks like a solid prospect. Pretty much replaces Aulie in the system IMO.

[jeremywilhelm]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

On the OP's topic, Pelech isn't really officially a bust until we don't re-sign him or we give up on him and his development.

That said, it is looking bleak for him.

On a happier note, we got Chris Breen for nothing due to good scouting and he looks like a solid prospect. Pretty much replaces Aulie in the system IMO.

And Breen is by far a better skater and has made a bigger impact in his first AHL season. Something Aulie couldn't do.