Ring Road To Nowhere

[Knut]

^ I have heard that it has more to do with the fact that much of the money would not trickle down to the actual people in need on Tsuu Tina. It was a facebook campaign of young people on the reserve that turned the vote against the deal. The Chief and his council would have made out like a bandit.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

You cannot be serious.

Look at it this way:

They turned down an offer of $130,000+ for every man, woman, and child on the reserve, knowing that turning down the offer meant everyone would get $0.

I'm not saying that every member would just get a cheque, but the reserve would have had a ton of cash, and a lot of development land, build some retail, hotels, etc, and the reserve could have been financially wealthy perpetually. The amount of money was enough so that should have been possible even if the money was managed relatively poorly.

Perhaps the chief and council would have made out like a bandit, however, even if that were the case, the people would have been much more "well off" as well.

$275 million given to a reserve of roughly 2000 people.

[TylerSVT]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Look at it this way:

They turned down an offer of $130,000+ for every man, woman, and child on the reserve, knowing that turning down the offer meant everyone would get $0.

I'm not saying that every member would just get a cheque, but the reserve would have had a ton of cash, and a lot of development land, build some retail, hotels, etc, and the reserve could have been financially wealthy perpetually. The amount of money was enough so that should have been possible even if the money was managed relatively poorly.

Perhaps the chief and council would have made out like a bandit, however, even if that were the case, the people would have been much more "well off" as well.

$275 million given to a reserve of roughly 2000 people.

They probably just want to keep pushing until they know the province cannot back away and they get 600 million or something stupid.

Let's be honest, these are the people who build Casinos and whatnot, all they want is money, has nothing to do with "sacred land"

[Madman]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

They probably just want to keep pushing until they know the province cannot back away and they get 600 million or something stupid.

Let's be honest, these are the people who build Casinos and whatnot, all they want is money, has nothing to do with "sacred land"

I wouldn't lump every member of the band into that same boat.

The band leaders? I would say absolutely they are greedy and have their priorities all screwed up.

Perhaps the vote of the band members was a vote against that greed and they did in fact want to protect their land.

[Jimmy Stang]

The casino entrance is probably the city's biggest bargaining chip. As I understand it, the legal entrance to the land is at Anderson Road, and the city isn't obligated to provide any other access point. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I think that if the city closed that off, however, it would signal somewhat of a last resort. It would undoubtedly have an impact on the casino's business as the majority of city folk would have to drive around the reservoir to get there, taking away the convenience factor. Many avid smokers and gamblers would likely do it though, but some wouldn't bother.

I really don't blame the Tsuu Tina for this either. We're in this mess because of bad planning decades ago, and NIMBYism in the present. As a city, we can't be entitled to land that isn't ours and was never ours. Not leaving enough of a corridor there was a huge mistake. That still doesn't answer the Weaslehead question, however.

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by Madman

I wouldn't lump every member of the band into that same boat.

The band leaders? I would say absolutely they are greedy and have their priorities all screwed up.

Perhaps the vote of the band members was a vote against that greed and they did in fact want to protect their land.

Possible, but the members should have done a better job of relaying that to the media then, because I would bet 90% of Calgarians share the same opinion as TylerSVT. Heck, I bet a large percentage would be in favor of building a 50 foot high wall around the reservation.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Pinner

Why the hate for Lakeview, I moved away a long time ago.

It's a less than stellar neighbourhood that is now an obstacle to progress. Also, judging by what I saw on the news last night, it's populated by morons.

I invite every Lakeview resident to spend a week driving on 14th street SW and Glenmore during rush hour, and we'll see if they still think a ring road is unnecessary.

The only thing more annoying are people who think the Weaselhead is anything but an artificially created area.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

The only thing more annoying are people who think the Weaselhead is anything but an artificially created area.

While I cannot thank you because of your ridiculous username, I do agree with the above.

[V]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

They probably just want to keep pushing until they know the province cannot back away and they get 600 million or something stupid.

Let's be honest, these are the people who build Casinos and whatnot, all they want is money, has nothing to do with "sacred land"

I was doing a lot of work on the reserve at the time of the vote and from what I heard it had a lot more to do with not trusting the white man than anything else.

I think a lot of opinion on this is driven by people in ivory towers that pretend to understand the state of mind of the people on the reserve and use that position to assume the reasons behind the decisions they make.

The reality is that most people have no idea where the natives are coming from and really shouldn't be pretending to understand why they do what they do.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

It's a less than stellar neighbourhood that is now an obstacle to progress. Also, judging by what I saw on the news last night, it's populated by morons.

Just to make this perfectly clear, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Lakeview is an excellent community and filled with terrific people. It's EXACTLY the type of community (small, functional, self-sufficient) that we ought to be building. Grocery stores, parks, schools, places of worship, barbers, tailors, mechanics, etc, etc, etc all within the community and all within walking distance.

Your beef is with Provincial and Municipal planners - not the community of Lakeview or it's residents. Grow up.

[Slava]

I'm not wading into the whole argument here, but Lakeview is far from self sufficient. Are you telling me that all of those people both live and work there? I don't buy it for a second.

As an aside its clearly not self sufficient as there is no Tim Hortons either...and in the real world we need that to live!

[Bunk]

I think the rejection of the deal by the Tsuu Tina was mostly to do with the lawyered language that ended up in the proposal. Things like "we will give you this land" that were negotiated turned into "we will make our best efforts to give you this land" in the end.

For a group that's been used to being screwed throughout history - I can see why many were hesitant.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

The only thing more annoying are people who think the Weaselhead is anything but an artificially created area.

Technically you are right as the reservoir was dammed in the 20s or 30s, but I do see it as an important natural area. I wouldn't want to see a road going through at ground level as it would certainly divide the area and have a major impact, and that's if the marshy land there could even have a road built on it.

What would be a very reasonable compromise, however, would be a nice big suspension bridge with as few pylons as possible. Wildlife, water, etc. can continue unhindered below. The truth is, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place, and it is going to require some compromise. Instead of vetoing a route along the edge of Lakeview and over the Weaselhead on NIMBY and environmental grounds, we should start figuring out how to limit the impact on each area while accepting the fact that the Tsuu Tina land isn't a viable option, and 14th Street and any of the other patchwork options aren't viable options either. Surely this won't be the first bridge over a sensitive area in the world.

As for 37th Street, it was set aside as a transportation corridor years ago. Time to put it to use. Of course, the impact on Lakeview should be as limited as possible. That area will be impacted regardless of the route, but I think that it is fair to proceed with the mindset that the impact should be as small as possible.

Plus, pushing ahead with a real plan might actually call the Tsuu Tina's bluff (if they are bluffing). Great - then accept the offer from a few years ago or we're ready with shovels in the ground to do it without you.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm not wading into the whole argument here, but Lakeview is far from self sufficient. Are you telling me that all of those people both live and work there? I don't buy it for a second.

As an aside its clearly not self sufficient as there is no Tim Hortons either...and in the real world we need that to live!

The way this term is often thrown around makes me laugh. Am I to assume that Lakeview (or any other community described as "self sufficient") grows or raises all the food they eat, have their own water source, treat their own sewage and produce all the energy needed to run their electronics and heat buildings all within the community?

Self-sufficient eh? Does the true meaning of words not matter anymore?

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

While its crazy, I think the end game is 22X. There are too many Nimbys/Fake Enviros affected by the 37 street option.

I actually think that Option 4 (22x, 37th Street, through the park) is the right choice for the city, and I suspect we'll see it happen.

All of the routes would require MAJOR retooling of roads and/or communities, with Option 4 being the least intrusive. Dealing with the Weaselhead area is probably the biggest hassle.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by V

The reality is that most people have no idea where the natives are coming from and really shouldn't be pretending to understand why they do what they do.

I think that comes with the Natives not letting the rest of us in on why they do what they do.

That's the thing; they didn't say "We also want X, Y and Z." They just said no.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Just to make this perfectly clear, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Lakeview is an excellent community and filled with terrific people. It's EXACTLY the type of community (small, functional, self-sufficient) that we ought to be building. Grocery stores, parks, schools, places of worship, barbers, tailors, mechanics, etc, etc, etc all within the community and all within walking distance.

Your beef is with Provincial and Municipal planners - not the community of Lakeview or it's residents. Grow up.

Wow, I'm sorry, I did not realize that having a Sobeys makes a community functional and self-suficient. What you've described also describes any other sub-division in the city. It doesn't make you special. Anyway, I'm glad you've got barbers and tailors and places of worship, but it's not 1950 anymore and the rest of the city is trying to make some progress.

But wait, your argument has convinced me. I suggest we cut off road access to Lakeview. You're functional and self-sufficient, I'm sure you'll do just fine, you're all such terrific people. No one ever leaves Lakeview anyway, it's a community!

Or perhaps, you're just a bunch of self-centered tools with a nasty case of NIMBYism.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm not wading into the whole argument here, but Lakeview is far from self sufficient. Are you telling me that all of those people both live and work there? I don't buy it for a second.

As an aside its clearly not self sufficient as there is no Tim Hortons either...and in the real world we need that to live!

Ya, self-sufficient wasn't really the right word to describe what I meant.

I'm just trying to show the difference between a community like Lakeview and communities such as (not picking on anyone here....) Coventry Hills or Panorama or McKenzie Towne (etc).

In Lakeview, I do my groceries there, use the barber, buy my gas, service my vehicle, buy the local pizza, get my beer, use the convenience store, use the tailor, enjoy the parks/recreation, etc, etc, etc. The vast majority of my day-to-day life is accomplished within a few square blocks. That's how communities ought to be built (imo).

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

The way this term is often thrown around makes me laugh. Am I to assume that Lakeview (or any other community described as "self sufficient") grows or raises all the food they eat, have their own water source, treat their own sewage and produce all the energy needed to run their electronics and heat buildings all within the community?

Self-sufficient eh? Does the true meaning of words not matter anymore?

Last I checked Lakeview is one of these..

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Wow, I'm sorry, I did not realize that having a Sobeys makes a community functional and self-suficient. What you've described also describes any other sub-division in the city. It doesn't make you special. Anyway, I'm glad you've got barbers and tailors and places of worship, but it's not 1950 anymore and the rest of the city is trying to make some progress.

But wait, your argument has convinced me. I suggest we cut off road access to Lakeview. You're functional and self-sufficient, I'm sure you'll do just fine, you're all such terrific people. No one ever leaves Lakeview anyway, it's a community!

Or perhaps, you're just a bunch of self-centered tools with a nasty case of NIMBYism.

I'm long on record as supporting the 37th plan (check for posts from the election and prior).

I object to you making the residents of Lakeview out to be the bad guys when it is CLEARLY a combination of bad planning and unsuccessful negotiations that has gotten us to this mess. And suggesting that the community is "....populated by morons" is just flat out wrong/rude. Again, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

And one question for you......why would I be expected to surrender my home (not that I would have to) in order to put in a road for an pushing little prick like you?