As an Albertan, would you EVER support seperation from Canada?

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

No THAT, I think is a valid notion.

Sounds like a reasonable thing to go after. I think it is achievable, and at not nearly the cost that separation for either Alberta or Quebec would entail.

I agree, maybe we should redo this thread sometime and say "Is it time for re-confederation?"

A 'new/better' deal for provinces, natives and the feds. A chance to innovate, improve and leave some baggage behind.

I like it.

PS At the same time lets ask Trinidad and Tobago to be the eleventh province....again
________
Roll a joint

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

I agree, maybe we should redo this thread sometime and say "Is it time for re-confederation?"

A 'new/better' deal for provinces, natives and the feds. A chance to innovate, improve and leave some baggage behind.

I like it.

PS At the same time lets ask Trinidad and Tobago to be the eleventh province....again

If it was possible for a redo of confederation, I'm sure most of us that voted yes would be all for it. There's just not a whole lot of confidence that the powers that be would even consider it.

BTW... It was Turks and Caicos Islands that wanted to join us, not Trinidad and Tobago. But I'd take them too...

[Incinerator]

No, I wouldn't separate, I'm no fan of the federal government but I'm a Canadian first, just because a great country is run by a bunch of incompetent crooks doesn't mean I want to give up and pack it in. Not to mention the issues (currency, defense, economic structure-what are you gonna do about all those corporate headquarters based here?) that would come with separation. Re-confederation, on the other hand....I would be all for it. Anything to take back the power from those slimy crooks.

[Ozy_Flame]

Strangely, the idea of a seperated Alberta doesn't make sense to me; not becuase of a political / philisophical issue, but rather practical ones. How will the tax structure be arranged? What would be our immigration laws? Who will defend our borders? How will the province address unionism? Such issues are extensive and complex; even if we decided to seperate, we'd need years of planning to make us a fully autonomous nation not solely reliant on our oil reserves.

[Table 5]

At this stage in my life, Im still considering moving back to Calgary sometime to settle down. Considering I'd like to open up shop if I do, if there is any serious talk of Alberta seperating, there's no way in hell Im going back. For the same reason companies moved out of Quebec during the last round of seperation talk, companies would be hesitant to move to Alberta as well.

Business needs stability, a new country does not offer that.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Table 5

At this stage in my life, Im still considering moving back to Calgary sometime to settle down. Considering I'd like to open up shop if I do, if there is any serious talk of Alberta seperating, there's no way in hell Im going back. For the same reason companies moved out of Quebec during the last round of seperation talk, companies would be hesitant to move to Alberta as well.

Business needs stability, a new country does not offer that.

You gotta wonder if the company called "Calgary Flames" would move out as well.

Separation or even a valid threat of it would be bad for business, not good. What's bad for business is bad for the Flames. Rich people moving away and businesses leaving would kill them.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

We have to sell them our oil. That's what the whole separation idea (as I've read it here) is built on -- selling oil and using the money from that to look after ourselves and be rich.

It's either sell it to "them" or try (hope) to sell it to the rest of the world on "their" terms using infrastructure in "their" country on "their" terms.

Do you think that if we refused to sell our oil to Canada or the US that they'd let us just pump that oil through pipelines over their land and into tankers at their ports so it can be shipped to China or India? I don't think that's going to happen.

The US and Canada could and would do whatever they damn well please to us. They aren't going to be nice to us.

Do you think any oil is getting through the pipelines in Alberta in this situation? The only realistic result of your suggestion is that Canada and the US screw themselves in the process of screwing us.

Your wishful thinking may lead you to assume that Canada would be so angry that they would try to screw us over at all costs, but I suspect the people in charge are much more pragmatic than you are. Either side acting out of spite will only serve to harm its own citizens.

Not to mention the fact that legally, a province can only seperate after negotiating the terms with the rest of Canada. This wouldn't exactly be a situation of Alberta taking off, leaving Canada the jilted lover bent on revenge.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Do you think any oil is getting through the pipelines in Alberta in this situation? The only realistic result of your suggestion is that Canada and the US screw themselves in the process of screwing us.

In a separation scenario, we need them a hell of a lot more than they need us. Alberta isn't the only place in the world with oil underneath it. We wouldn't be able to do anything without their co-operation. Selling our oil would be on their terms.

I don't think they'd screw themselves just to spite us, but I think they'd turn the screws absolutely as far as possible. The only reason they wouldn't is to be polite and I don't see them being polite.

But if it got right down to it and we said "forget you, you can't have any of it" then someone would invade our glorious little Oilcountry and take it.

Not that there has ever been a war over oil, but there is a first time for everything.

I know I'm repeating the same theme over and over but can't you see that we would be at their mercy? We'd have no bargaining power whatsoever. You think the Canadian military is inadequate? Imagine if we had to start from scratch.

This tiny little enclave of a few million people, stuck in the middle of the continent with no physical access to the outside world, literally standing on top of hundreds of trillions of dollars, with no military (or a very small one) and nobody is going to take advantage of us? Why wouldn't they?

[Resolute 14]

Uhh, because the world community wouldnt allow it?

Canada already is no match for the US militaraly, and any American invasion would be over in a matter of hours. Why hasnt the US invaded Canada to take our oil? Why do they instead choose to purchase it?

Why would that situation change if Alberta seperated?

It's a wonder every land locked nation in Europe hasnt been annexed by their larger neighbors, given how it is impossible for them to survive.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

It's a wonder every land locked nation in Europe hasnt been annexed by their larger neighbors, given how it is impossible for them to survive.

That's been tried a number oft times. Nov.11 comes to mind...

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Uhh, because the world community wouldnt allow it?

Canada already is no match for the US militaraly, and any American invasion would be over in a matter of hours. Why hasnt the US invaded Canada to take our oil? Why do they instead choose to purchase it?

Why would that situation change if Alberta seperated?

It's a wonder every land locked nation in Europe hasnt been annexed by their larger neighbors, given how it is impossible for them to survive.

The world community wouldn't allow what? Canada and the US squeezing every drop and dollar out of us that they can? It is the name of the game after all.

Call me crazy, but I don't think the world community is going to raise a big stink about unfair trade practices between Canada/US and a country they never heard of. And if they did, I've got very little confidence that the Americans in particular will care too much at all about what the global community has to say about it.

Landlocked European nations are not comparable for a variety of reasons, the main one being "they aren't sitting on a gigantic oil reserve". If for example Luxembourg happened to be sitting on a trillion barrels of oil, things would be a little different over there, don't you think? I doubt there would even be a country called Luxembourg

[tjinaz]

Uhh, because the world community wouldnt allow it?

Canada already is no match for the US militaraly, and any American invasion would be over in a matter of hours. Why hasnt the US invaded Canada to take our oil? Why do they instead choose to purchase it?

Why would that situation change if Alberta seperated?

Bingo...

I think the key there is European. Europe is a shark tank with many sharks that play off each other the western hemisphere only has just one big one. Alberta would have nothing to fear. If the US had any territorial ambitions it would already be over. If it were about oil the US would have annexed Venezula by now.

As soon as a major country recognizes Alberta as a nation the world community would come into play. Look at Israel.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

I had to use such a simple example because of the mental capacity of the poster. Normally I wouldn't use such a basic example, but the only way to get the point across was through this example.

Arent you the arrogant prick?

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Ummm, I think comparing Israel and a seperated Alberta is fantastic.................as in unbelievable.

Honestly, I think if Alberta seperated, most of the world would think "What the **** is their problem?"
________
Live sex webshows

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The world community wouldn't allow what? Canada and the US squeezing every drop and dollar out of us that they can? It is the name of the game after all.

Call me crazy, but I don't think the world community is going to raise a big stink about unfair trade practices between Canada/US and a country they never heard of. And if they did, I've got very little confidence that the Americans in particular will care too much at all about what the global community has to say about it.

Landlocked European nations are not comparable for a variety of reasons, the main one being "they aren't sitting on a gigantic oil reserve". If for example Luxembourg happened to be sitting on a trillion barrels of oil, things would be a little different over there, don't you think? I doubt there would even be a country called Luxembourg

C'mon Rouge. You arent that dense, and we both know it.

You know exactly what I am referring to talking about what the world community wouldnt allow. You spent a couple paragraphs talking about Alberta being invaded. Hell, you even made another mention of the idea in this post, putting Luxembourg in Alberta's place.

Also, you ignored my question: Why doesnt the US squeeze Canada for our oil? Why doesnt the US invade Canada to get our oil? Why does the US buy our oil at open market prices? Why would that change if Alberta separated?

[CaptainCrunch]

First thing that King Crunch the first does as the new sovereign leader of the country of Alberta, King for Life may the light shine every where I walk. anyways I go to the States and ask for favorable terms of admission into NATO in exchange for favorible terms on Oil production, to back up my NATO admission, I offer to buy off the shelf American surplus military equipment including advanced M1 battle tanks and LAV IV armoured fighting vehicles, I complement this by buying 4 complete squadrons of ATFs, and 1 squadron of Rapier F-22's and Apache gunships. Then I offer clemency and refugee status to any Canadian soldier that wishes to defect to Alberta and give them a raise and superior equipment.

I then approach the Americans about negotiating the building of a pipeline to the nearest seaport so we can start shipping products abroad.

I then invest from the heritage fund into new technology based industries, new national health care and educational programs. Every child under the age of 6 gets a pony.

Then we send a letter to the remainder of Canada telling them that they are welcome to ship in Oil from elsewhere if they don't want to buy our Oil and Gas on Alberta's terms, we also implement a entry and exit tax for freight passing through Alberta.

Then with my next decree we start using the money from our Oil and gas sales, and our newly funded technology Ray to build a weather machine, a mega death ray and a cable box capable of making the playboy channel HD.

Just trying to sort of lighten things up after a few beers. But I'm serious about joining NATO which would give us protection, NORAD which would give us air coverage, and everything else except for the weather machine and the death ray.

But the pony and the playboy channel thing would guarantee my continued reign as your beloved sovereign for life

[tjinaz]

Ummm, I think comparing Israel and a seperated Alberta is fantastic.................as in unbelievable

My point was after the nation of Israel was recognized by the US and the UK (being major powers) they began to be viewed as an actual country and there was international legitamacy to their government. Without formal recognition of the government they would be viewed as rogues and no other nation would trade or sign treatys with them.

Geez... I guess I could have used some of the former Republics of the Soviet Union but they all had their own UN seats.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

C'mon Rouge. You arent that dense, and we both know it.

You know exactly what I am referring to talking about what the world community wouldnt allow. You spent a couple paragraphs talking about Alberta being invaded. Hell, you even made another mention of the idea in this post, putting Luxembourg in Alberta's place.

Also, you ignored my question: Why doesnt the US squeeze Canada for our oil? Why doesnt the US invade Canada to get our oil? Why does the US buy our oil at open market prices? Why would that change if Alberta separated?

Oh please.

Believe me, I'm a hell of a lot more dense than you would even guess, so let's keep it civil please!!!

We really are going around in circles.

I think the Americans and Canadians would control the sale of oil from Alberta oil because they could easily be the only customers we'd have.

As far as I can tell you think they'd be nice to us and would pay the going rate because they are just nice guys, or because they are worried about what the rest of the world would have to say about it.

I don't think they (Americans or Canadians) would be nice about anything and I'm pretty sure the Americans don't give a **** about what the global community has to say about what they get up to in countries that have a lot of oil in the basement.

[Thunderball]

Rouge, you seem to forget that Canada would not be all that strong. They just lost 3.3m people, and 15-20% of their national economy. Plus, odds are, Canada would balkanize if Alberta (or Quebec) split off. BC could very likely be teaming up, which would change everything. Assuming they didn't, Alberta could cripple BC by imposing heavy tax on anything coming or going through Alberta rail or airspace. Why would the US help Canada with that problem, cause they're nice guys? Naw, to them Alberta and Canada would be two pains in the ass... but one supplies oil. Canada would have to play ball too, cause being hardasses wouldn't help anyone, and would only prove to destablize North America, which the Americans wouldn't tolerate.

When it comes to defense, odds are Alberta would insist on 10% of the armed forces if they took on 10% of the national debt. Thats something to build on. Not to mention the amount of equipment we'd buy from the US.

As for the global community stuff... once a number of states, or a couple major states recognize Alberta... and they would. (See Czech and Slovak Republics), Canada would be severely penalized for attempting to damage this state. The US may be able to dodge the international community, but a weakened Canada sure as hell couldn't.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Rouge, you seem to forget that Canada would not be all that strong. They just lost 3.3m people, and 15-20% of their national economy. Plus, odds are, Canada would balkanize if Alberta (or Quebec) split off. BC could very likely be teaming up, which would change everything. Assuming they didn't, Alberta could cripple BC by imposing heavy tax on anything coming or going through Alberta rail or airspace. Why would the US help Canada with that problem, cause they're nice guys? Naw, to them Alberta and Canada would be two pains in the ass... but one supplies oil. Canada would have to play ball too, cause being hardasses wouldn't help anyone, and would only prove to destablize North America, which the Americans wouldn't tolerate.

When it comes to defense, odds are Alberta would insist on 10% of the armed forces if they took on 10% of the national debt. Thats something to build on. Not to mention the amount of equipment we'd buy from the US.

As for the global community stuff... once a number of states, or a couple major states recognize Alberta... and they would. (See Czech and Slovak Republics), Canada would be severely penalized for attempting to damage this state. The US may be able to dodge the international community, but a weakened Canada sure as hell couldn't.

An independent Alberta would be to Canada what Mexico is to the U.S. It would not have the clout to dictate anything, even with oil. Mexico is in fact an oil rich nation but is still subject to whatever the more powerful North American neighbour wants...

I also don't think that it is a given that the international community would recognize Alberta as an independent country. With Czechoslovakia, each region was already a recognized republic with distinct cultures and histories. The only reason they were together was to create an artificial buffer between European powers. The split was pretty much mutual between Czechs and Slovaks, where as in Canada, there is no history of Alberta without Canada. In fact, Alberta was created BY Canada.

A better example would be to look at Kosovo. Despite a situation far more dire than that in Alberta, the international community decided that it was still Serbian territory and affirmed that. Their independence was never recognized because Kosovo was historically a Serbian province and was never a nation (like Slovakia or the Czech Republic which were nations within a state, as well as Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Macedonia). If genocide wouldn't even help Kosovo get international recognition, then I doubt Alberta would get any attention.