Clergy told to take on the 'new atheists'

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think that these cartoons are a little unfair, we've seen some pretty militant atheists as well that are equally dis-respectful of peoples beliefs.

I'm not an overly religious guy, I don't go to church, but if one more person decides to debate with me by using the term space alien to describe god, I'm going to run over him with my jeep.

I'm pretty much directly quoting Dawkins here, but why should religious beliefs be accorded more respect than other kinds of beliefs?

If someone came to you and told you that they believed that Brandon Prust was a better pure scorer than Jarome Iginla you wouldn't treat that belief with much respect, would you?

And that's a pretty minor thing to believe, it's not going to influence how that person lives or votes or anything.

What is it about religious belief that automatically makes it require respect from everyone?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think that these cartoons are a little unfair, we've seen some pretty militant atheists as well that are equally dis-respectful of peoples beliefs.

I'm not an overly religious guy, I don't go to church, but if one more person decides to debate with me by using the term space alien to describe god, I'm going to run over him with my jeep.

How about flying spaghetti monster?

I get sick of the whole debate. I consider myself an agnostic that leans toward there being something. If someone asks me if I believe in "god", I am inclined to say yes even if I can't articulate the complicated ideas that I have about it.

I have been countered by many atheists in these debates with; "Oh, so you believe there is an old man with a beard sitting on a cloud judging us...?". Which to me is the equivalent of someone saying that they believe in extreterrestrial life and coming back at them with; "Oh, so you believe that there are little green men living under the surface on Mars...?".

[Dion]

[peter12]

Originally Posted by driveway

I'm pretty much directly quoting Dawkins here, but why should religious beliefs be accorded more respect than other kinds of beliefs?

If someone came to you and told you that they believed that Brandon Prust was a better pure scorer than Jarome Iginla you wouldn't treat that belief with much respect, would you?

And that's a pretty minor thing to believe, it's not going to influence how that person lives or votes or anything.

What is it about religious belief that automatically makes it require respect from everyone?

Something Dawkins has seriously never considered.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by driveway

I'm pretty much directly quoting Dawkins here, but why should religious beliefs be accorded more respect than other kinds of beliefs?

If someone came to you and told you that they believed that Brandon Prust was a better pure scorer than Jarome Iginla you wouldn't treat that belief with much respect, would you?

And that's a pretty minor thing to believe, it's not going to influence how that person lives or votes or anything.

What is it about religious belief that automatically makes it require respect from everyone?

I believe strongly in respecting peoples beliefs, I respect people that are atheists, I would expect the common courtesy that an atheist would at least debate with a bit of tact and respect in return.

And I can debate you about the Prust vs Iginla thing without snorting or rolling my eyes or calling Prust a freaking joke for example.

But so many of the people that debate from either point of view think its ok to be completely dis-respectful and insulting.

So is there a reason why both sides get their backs up? Absolutely

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I believe strongly in respecting peoples beliefs, I respect people that are atheists, I would expect the common courtesy that an atheist would at least debate with a bit of tact and respect in return.

And I can debate you about the Prust vs Iginla thing without snorting or rolling my eyes or calling Prust a freaking joke for example.

But so many of the people that debate from either point of view think its ok to be completely dis-respectful and insulting.

So is there a reason why both sides get their backs up? Absolutely

It's tough, to an atheist like myself I hate the fact that people waste their lives on stories,fairy tales and rubbish and I truly do try to keep my big mouth shut but then when I hear from say christians on where we came from I just have to get ugly on them...sorry, but I truly believe any educated person should be able to see threw this crap by now. It's science yes but it's far from rocket science.

Every molecule in your body, in every animal,plant,mineral,every thing on this planet came from this type of exploding star.



This planet and every person on it will be much better off if they try to understand this. If they channeled even half of their energy that they do to "gods" to science maybe just maybe the human race will stand a chance in the future.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I believe strongly in respecting peoples beliefs, I respect people that are atheists, I would expect the common courtesy that an atheist would at least debate with a bit of tact and respect in return.

And I can debate you about the Prust vs Iginla thing without snorting or rolling my eyes or calling Prust a freaking joke for example.

But so many of the people that debate from either point of view think its ok to be completely dis-respectful and insulting.

So is there a reason why both sides get their backs up? Absolutely

It sounds like what you're asking for is that they respect you when debating. It's not a matter of having to handle the beliefs themselves with kid gloves, but rather that people display common courtesy when debating.

I think that the problem then becomes, when you're debating something as personal as religion, people can take any argument as a personal assault.

I mean, if someone identifies as Christian and I start pointing out what I consider to be the obvious flaws in Christian theology it's easy for that person to believe I'm being rude or I'm trying to belittle them personally. And I understand that reaction and try to avoid causing it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stay silent if it's an appropriate situation to enter debate.

I agree that people should treat each other with respect in all circumstances and things like scoffing, eye-rolling and hyperbolic statements are just plain ######y, but I would disagree with the idea that religious beliefs themselves should be accorded a special king of respect or treated any differently than any other kind of belief.

[missdpuck]

I've never seen an ad campaign quite like the one this place is launching:http://bocajourney.com

Free gift! Wii! BodForGod !

Mass mailings, ads on your doorknob, TV, billboards, skywriting. God!!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by T@T

It's tough, to an atheist like myself I hate the fact that people waste their lives on stories,fairy tales and rubbish and I truly do try to keep my big mouth shut but then when I hear from say christians on where we came from I just have to get ugly on them...sorry, but I truly believe any educated person should be able to see threw this crap by now. It's science yes but it's far from rocket science.

Every molecule in your body, in every animal,plant,mineral,every thing on this planet came from this type of exploding star.



This planet and every person on it will be much better off if they try to understand this. If they channeled even half of their energy that they do to "gods" to science maybe just maybe the human race will stand a chance in the future.

Frankly and honestly, if you don't like my beliefs, it shouldn't matter to you. I'm not out to change anyone's minds, if they want to engage me in debate, fine fab, I'll defend my position.

There's no real reason to intrude on someones spirituality.

Personally I believe in god, I believe in evolution and the big bang theory and all of that stuff.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by driveway

It sounds like what you're asking for is that they respect you when debating. It's not a matter of having to handle the beliefs themselves with kid gloves, but rather that people display common courtesy when debating.

I really don't know where you got that point from unless I misspoke somewhere. I respect people's rights not to believe. If they want to talk about beliefs I'm fine with that, However if they want to debate my religion or my spirituality there needs to be a mutual respect. I get resentful because people don't debate, they more then often belittle or insult. Again I use the example of the space alien or spaghetti monster. To someone who believes that's equivalent to hauling off and slapping that person in the face. Just like I don't have a right to scream at you that you're a non believer who's going to burn in hell forever.

Originally Posted by driveway

I think that the problem then becomes, when you're debating something as personal as religion, people can take any argument as a personal assault.

Absolutely. The day and age of civilized debate in a lot of ways is dead. Everyone needs to basically be a comedian. Or they think they need to shout to get their point across. And I'm talking about both sides.

Originally Posted by driveway

I mean, if someone identifies as Christian and I start pointing out what I consider to be the obvious flaws in Christian theology it's easy for that person to believe I'm being rude or I'm trying to belittle them personally. And I understand that reaction and try to avoid causing it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stay silent if it's an appropriate situation to enter debate.

I will state that its impossible to debate against a faith based position. Like I've said before I believe in evolution, and the big bang and the creation of the universe as a physical thing defined by physical provable laws. I also believe in a god and an ultimate creator. If that makes me conflicted so be it, however I'm comfortable in that world.

I might be generalizing a bit and so be it. But I find it personally insulting when people call me dumb for believing or question my belief in the cookie monster/snog monster/alien space creature/great everlasting gob stopper in the sky.

Originally Posted by driveway

I agree that people should treat each other with respect in all circumstances and things like scoffing, eye-rolling and hyperbolic statements are just plain ######y, but I would disagree with the idea that religious beliefs themselves should be accorded a special king of respect or treated any differently than any other kind of belief.

I'm not asking for anything more then I would be willing to give.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There's no real reason to intrude on someones spirituality.

Perhaps not your version, but generally speaking there certainly is. People's spiritualities affect their thoughts and actions, which affect others through democracy and other mechanisms.

[photon]

That's the rub, if people's beliefs happened in a vacuum it wouldn't be an issue.

But things affect other things, and that's why some people get vocal about it and confrontations can happen.

I think a person's motivation plays a part, some people are confrontational for the sake of confrontation, they seek it out for its own sake. I don't like that.

While others get into situations that foster confrontations because they feel strongly about something, but usually they happen in a venue where everyone up front what's going on.

So an atheist or Christian or liberal or whatever that writes a book (which no one is forced to read), is invited to speak, writes on their website, talks on the news when interviewed, etc might be saying things that are confrontational to some, but they aren't forcing that confrontation on anyone.. and as long as their motivation is honest and they're trying to put forth their ideas for good (even if they're wrong) reasons, I think that's all fine.

It's when people go too far, trying to mandate their views on others, or go onto someone else's "turf", that I don't like it. Or if the motivation is base or the reasons dishonest (personal gain, or just to feel superior, or whatever).

[Cheese]

When it comes to pushing views on people, none go as far as the religious.
The local talk radio station here occasionally brings up a discussion regarding religious topics and I am often abhorred at the way the Christians try to push their points, often in a very angry and arrogant manner.
Whenever an atheist calls in they often talk in a factual, scientific manner without raising their voice, pointing fingers or making threats of any kind, and almost always based on information gleaned from educating themselves on a subject.
For the most part I see the same thing here.

[Doctordestiny]

There are jerks on both sides. Doesn't mean we have to join them.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Personally I believe in god, I believe in evolution and the big bang theory and all of that stuff.

Is this gods sperm?

[CaptainCrunch]

no thats mine

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SebC

Perhaps not your version, but generally speaking there certainly is. People's spiritualities affect their thoughts and actions, which affect others through democracy and other mechanisms.

So you've been appointed to the Thought Police, congratulations.

What makes humanity great is that people can formulate their own thoughts and their own spirituality and their own opinion, they don't need to adopt someone elses.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Cheese

When it comes to pushing views on people, none go as far as the religious.
The local talk radio station here occasionally brings up a discussion regarding religious topics and I am often abhorred at the way the Christians try to push their points, often in a very angry and arrogant manner.
Whenever an atheist calls in they often talk in a factual, scientific manner without raising their voice, pointing fingers or making threats of any kind, and almost always based on information gleaned from educating themselves on a subject.
For the most part I see the same thing here.

With all due respect Cheese you are the counter to your own argument.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by peter12

Something Dawkins has seriously never considered.

Perhaps, but what is your answer to the question?

What is it about religious belief that automatically makes it require respect from everyone?

I'm sure there are many religious beliefs that you consider absurd, but do you "respect" them anyway?

[FlamesAddiction]

The problem as I see it is that someone will point to the worst case example of an aspect from one side and paint everyone with the same brush. All the ordinary moderate people in the middle just want to be left out of it. My personal spiritual beliefs have about as much to do with the wrong doings of organized religion as me being white has to do with the enslaving of Africans during colonialism.

I have never once tried to convert anyone to my beliefs... I rarely even talk about them.