The Dark Knight Rises: July 20, 2012

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

How so...

I liked how nolan didnt actually call him two-face in the movie, he didnt have a moniker, just a pissed off guy with a messed face.

IMO its almost impossible to fault TDK.

Actually he was called two face. It was mentioned in the hospital scene with Gordon.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3

The only thing I didn't like in The Dark Knight was that Two Face died. The saddest thing though was the fact I knew the Joker wouldn't return in Batman 3.

Really? The fact that Batman killed Two-Face was one of the best things about the movie, yet another example of how The Joker was the ultimate victor in the movie. He finally got Batman to break his one rule

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Why did you not like Two Face in TDK?

Because you felt it took away from the Joker's spot light? I think that it was the perfect amount of Joker, anymore or any less and it would have ruined the character. It was necessary to have two evils in that film, it helped to high light the pure evil that the Joker possessed.

I agree, Joker was pure evil (some men just want to watch the world burn) and Two-Face was the one that had his reasons and cracking point that Batman could understand. Two types of criminals, needed to contrast each other.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Actually he was called two face. It was mentioned in the hospital scene with Gordon.

He was called Harvey Two-Face because of his work with internal affairs, it worked well with him then having, well, two faces. I seem to recall him being called Two-Face but I can't recall where

[robocop]

I liked two-face and thought Joker was played perfectly, so good that people don't quite yet realize how good it was. The only flaws I found were the implausibility of the car chase scene and Christian Bale. Bale just lacks a certain bravado that I associate with Batman, the batman cartoon from the 90's had it, Bale's stupid raspy voice and his beak nose ruined it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Really? The fact that Batman killed Two-Face was one of the best things about the movie, yet another example of how The Joker was the ultimate victor in the movie. He finally got Batman to break his one rule

Yup, he made Batman into the very thing that he didn't want to be, the Villian, the end point where Batman was fleeing from the police was hugely symbolic of the Jokers victory.

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

I agree, Joker was pure evil (some men just want to watch the world burn) and Two-Face was the one that had his reasons and cracking point that Batman could understand. Two types of criminals, needed to contrast each other.

I kind of wish that there had been a back story to the movie joker, he was such an interesting character in that he kept claiming that he had no plan, but he was really the only one in the whole movie with a pan.

Everything that he did was to prove a point, so he wasn't the blind killer that the comic joker was, he was almost like a grad student running rats through a maze, and the killing to him wasn't as important as forcing change.

I had my doubts about the joker character before the movie came out, but afterwards I was blown away at the re-invention.

In a way its a shame that Ledger died, it would have been really interesting to see Heath Ledger twisting Haley Quinn.

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

He was called Harvey Two-Face because of his work with internal affairs, it worked well with him then having, well, two faces. I seem to recall him being called Two-Face but I can't recall where

Wasn't it in the hospital where he ordered Gordon to tell him what his name was when he was with internal affairs.

And what really happened to Two Face

http://robotchicken.wikia.com/wiki/T..._Hot_Chocolate

[sa226]

I like how the villains were portrayed. They served a specific purpose.

This isn't necessarily the comics where characters are reincarnated and keep coming back time and time again.

It was alluded to that the Joker came about because of "escalation."

Gotham has this hero dude dressed as a bat, it is probably going to draw the crazies out. Even though Gotham was the Jokers target, Batman was his obsession. "He is just too much fun."

As it has been explained above, the death of Two-Face was necessary for the story and the development of Wayne\Batman. It is summed up perfectly in the closing monologue of the movie.

The comics have such great characters that it makes sense to bring them back in other issues to satisfy fans and ultimately sell more comics. In the movies in my opinion it is far more effective to create the best story arc for that character with a suitable ending.

For that reason I would not be the least bit surprised to see Batman killed or at least Bruce Wayne cease to be Batman in the next movie.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

He was called Harvey Two-Face because of his work with internal affairs, it worked well with him then having, well, two faces. I seem to recall him being called Two-Face but I can't recall where

I told you exactly when. In the hospital with Gordon. He asks what they used to call him when he was with internal affairs and it was two face.

Harvey Dent: Remember that name you all had for me when I was at Internal Affairs? What was it, Gordon?
Lt. James Gordon: Harvey, I...
Harvey Dent: Say it. Say it!
Lt. James Gordon: Two-Face. Harvey Two-Face.
[Harvey turns his head, revealing the scarred side of his face]
Harvey Dent: Why should I hide who I am?

[sa226]

^^^^^^

That was the first and only time it was said.

It was also alluded to when Dent first met Gordon in his office near the beginning of the movie.

Something along the lines of

Dent: "What was that name they had for me down at internal affairs?"
Gordon: looks down and away "I wouldn't know anything about that"

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by sa226

^^^^^^

That was the first and only time it was said.

It was also alluded to when Dent first met Gordon in his office near the beginning of the movie.

Something along the lines of

Dent: "What was that name they had for me down at internal affairs?"
Gordon: looks down and away "I wouldn't know anything about that"

Yup. Which is very interesting because it was one of the few times Nolan really went of the beaten path for an origin.

Dent was supposed to have acid thrown in his face during either the Maroni or Falcone trial (my memory is hazy) and their was no IA nickname, Two Face only came about after Dent lost his mind.

Edit: just checked it was Mr Maroni who threw the acid at Falcone's trial.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Yup. Which is very interesting because it was one of the few times Nolan really went of the beaten path for an origin.

Dent was supposed to have acid thrown in his face during either the Maroni or Falcone trial (my memory is hazy) and their was no IA nickname, Two Face only came about after Dent lost his mind.

They actually portrayed that in the horrid Batman and Robin movie with Tommy Lee Jones, who probably could have been a great Two Face if that monster Schumacher wasn't directing the movie.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

They actually portrayed that in the horrid Batman and Robin movie with Tommy Lee Jones, who probably could have been a great Two Face if that monster Schumacher wasn't directing the movie.

You mean Batman Forever?

Batman and Robin is the Arnold one. Only good thing about that one was Uma Thurman was insanely hot as Poison Ivy.

Bat nipples.

[CaptainCrunch]

yup your right, they kind of blended together into one steaming pile of terrible.

[robocop]

hey man, batman forever was a million times better than batman and robin

Val Kilmer + Nicole Kidman + TLJ + Jim Carrey > Arnold, Clooney and Thurman

I have fond memories of it, it was very comic book like but it still had the dark tones of batman. Batman and Robin was like a bad acid trip.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I told you exactly when. In the hospital with Gordon. He asks what they used to call him when he was with internal affairs and it was two face.

Harvey Dent: Remember that name you all had for me when I was at Internal Affairs? What was it, Gordon?
Lt. James Gordon: Harvey, I...
Harvey Dent: Say it. Say it!
Lt. James Gordon: Two-Face. Harvey Two-Face.
[Harvey turns his head, revealing the scarred side of his face]
Harvey Dent: Why should I hide who I am?

I guess it's just semantics, to me he's answering Dent's question, and never actually called him Two-Face. I seem to recall him always called Harvey, or Dent. Otherwise he was always Two-Face from his time at Internal Affairs, and the "accident" didn't change anything.

However you can argue that he's always been Two-Face, criminal or D.A., just different sides of the coin. If that's the case then yes he was without questioned called Two-Face.

All depends on how you look at the character. Was he always Two-Face always Harvey Dent, or was Two-Face the criminal?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by robocop

hey man, batman forever was a million times better than batman and robin

Val Kilmer + Nicole Kidman + TLJ + Jim Carrey > Arnold, Clooney and Thurman

I have fond memories of it, it was very comic book like but it still had the dark tones of batman. Batman and Robin was like a bad acid trip.

Don't forget Drew Barrymore played one of Two-Face's henchwomen.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

I guess it's just semantics, to me he's answering Dent's question, and never actually called him Two-Face. I seem to recall him always called Harvey, or Dent. Otherwise he was always Two-Face from his time at Internal Affairs, and the "accident" didn't change anything.

However you can argue that he's always been Two-Face, criminal or D.A., just different sides of the coin. If that's the case then yes he was without questioned called Two-Face.

All depends on how you look at the character. Was he always Two-Face always Harvey Dent, or was Two-Face the criminal?

Harvey Dent was always two face, after he was scarred he just made it more apparent.

He was the urban District attorney (I believe in Harvey). He played the role of the squeeky clean tough DA, but he wasn't above assault prisoners in his care, and doing illegal things to get his way. The only difference was that after his scarring he didn't need to hide his darkside.

Even as a villian he had an unwavering sense of justice and chance. Its just that he'd lost all hope, and his will was interwoven with his sense of revenge.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

How so...

He's in the film for like what, half an hour? That's not a lot of time for one of the most notorious Batman villains. Also, I thought the struggle with the duality of Harvey's persona was extremely rushed. You see a glimpse of it in the alley when he is interrogating one of the Joker's henchmen, then he has the accident, the Joker delivers his little speech and BAM! he becomes a full out super villain. The way I feel, Two Face isn't the kind of villain like the Joker, where he just is. He's the kind of villain were we should be taken through his internal struggle. The Dark Knight should have been focused on the Joker and the mob. The third one should have been about Two Face.

I liked how nolan didnt actually call him two-face in the movie, he didnt have a moniker, just a pissed off guy with a messed face.

I believe that Gordon called him Two Face when he was in the hospital.

IMO its almost impossible to fault TDK.

Come on now. I could put together a list of faults with The Dark Knight. Good film and probably my favourite superhero movie, but it was hardly faultless.

[CaptainCrunch]

I vould like to see this list, and can you point me out to the Nuclear vessels.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I vould like to see this list, and can you point me out to the Nuclear vessels.

Here's a couple of posts from another thread:

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

OMG there were so many. Some are forgivable because it was a comic book movie, others not so much.

How did the Joker infiltrate the Police squad at the public funeral procession in the streets? Bruce finds the officers tied up in an apartment and the joker is dressed as a cop and takes a shot at Gordon. The dudes face is horribly mangled and he's public enemy #1 and there's 5000 cops around. No one noticed? Right.

How did the Joker get like 500 barrels of gasoline onto the ferry? Twice!! And then twice more into the buildings where he held Dent and whatsherface.

How did Wayne get his sonar imaging dealio into all the cell phones? He says he turned every cell phone into a sonar machine or whatever. How? Issuing all 10m Gotham citizens new Wayne Enterprises cell phones?

How did the Joker blow up the hospital? How did he get poison onto the Commissioner's glass? (these are both less important. Presumably the Joker has lots of lackeys and insiders)

When that guy is on the TV show and is going to reveal who the Batman is how did the Joker just call into the show? It honestly reminded me of the Simpsons episode where Kent Brockman says "and we have our first caller, and I mean ever, this isn't a call in show".

When the Joker interrupts Wayne's party and throws whatsherface out the window and Batman jumps after her what did the joker do? Just walk out the front door of the party? Take the elevator down? Kill the rest of the people in that room?

Why did the police force have a guard standing inside Joker's cell? Even when they did, why was no one else watching when he tried to beat up the Joker and got his ass kicked? How did they even get out of the holding room Joker was in?

How did Joker even plan that? He had the cell phone in the guy's stomach, ok fine. But how did he anticipate that he'd be able to escape and make that phone call? He couldn't have known Gotham PD would be stupid enough to place an idiot cop in the room with Joker, who would just happen to lose his cool. And when this guy was getting his ass beat by the Joker and while the Joker was escaping the holding room, not a single other cop saw this or did anything? Right. That makes sense. Why not just leave Joker alone in the holding room? Why even have a guy INSIDE the friggin room? Why not just outside the door?


There are more but I haven't seen it in a while.

FTR I loved TDK and Inception both. Inception actually had far, far fewer plot holes and stuff that went unexplained.

Originally Posted by Ark2

These are all good points, but to me, there were even more subtle inconsistencies that bothered me. For example, after Gordon allegedly died, and Batman went to visit the Italian mob boss, how is it that within seconds after this meeting, he manages to find Harvey Dent? Or how about how Batman drops the Italian mobster from the building, you hear his ankles break, and then a mere few days later you see him walking around, seemingly pain free? Another thing that bothered me was when the Italian mob boss tells the police exactly when and where they can find the Joker because he feels that he has gone too far, and yet absolutely nothing comes from it?

[Sainters7]

Was I the only one who liked Batman Begins better than TDK? Loved TDK too, just felt the first one had more of a storyline to it (obviously, being the origin story). And the better looking, less annoying (but still annoying) Rachel.

[CaptainCrunch]

Guess I'll try and answer some of these, I think some of them are a little nitpicky no insult to Cecil, but movies are really not detail machines, you have to do a lot of leaps of faith.

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
OMG there were so many. Some are forgivable because it was a comic book movie, others not so much.

How did the Joker infiltrate the Police squad at the public funeral procession in the streets? Bruce finds the officers tied up in an apartment and the joker is dressed as a cop and takes a shot at Gordon. The dudes face is horribly mangled and he's public enemy #1 and there's 5000 cops around. No one noticed? Right.

they were looking for a maniac with white face and red lips who acts crazy, there were thousands of cops around, they weren't looking at their own, and from a distance he would have looked pretty normal. You could ask how some taliban members infiltrate the police and army personal while carrying a belt bomb.

How did the Joker get like 500 barrels of gasoline onto the ferry? Twice!! And then twice more into the buildings where he held Dent and whatsherface.

Remember what was said before, the Joker had lots of henchmen working with him, he also had mob members working for him at the time. He also was not above using blackmail etc. The police were also spread thing because of the chaos of searching all the hospitals for bombs while searching for the Joker so I doubt they could have guards everywhere.

How did Wayne get his sonar imaging dealio into all the cell phones? He says he turned every cell phone into a sonar machine or whatever. How? Issuing all 10m Gotham citizens new Wayne Enterprises cell phones?

Maybe he created a downloadable game app called Batman Forever that millions downloaded and it had the sonar upgrade within it. This is a leap of faith thing.

How did the Joker blow up the hospital? How did he get poison onto the Commissioner's glass? (these are both less important. Presumably the Joker has lots of lackeys and insiders)

Henchmen, dirty cops, the army of lunatics. One thing was pretty clear was that Joker had a plan, and he had probably been working on it for a while.

When that guy is on the TV show and is going to reveal who the Batman is how did the Joker just call into the show? It honestly reminded me of the Simpsons episode where Kent Brockman says "and we have our first caller, and I mean ever, this isn't a call in show".

Hello T.V. Station, this is the joker, put me through to your host now


When the Joker interrupts Wayne's party and throws whatsherface out the window and Batman jumps after her what did the joker do? Just walk out the front door of the party? Take the elevator down? Kill the rest of the people in that room?

Joker was pretty target focused, and enjoyed causing fear and Chaos, he didn't care about those other guests.

Why did the police force have a guard standing inside Joker's cell? Even when they did, why was no one else watching when he tried to beat up the Joker and got his ass kicked? How did they even get out of the holding room Joker was in?

How did Joker even plan that? He had the cell phone in the guy's stomach, ok fine. But how did he anticipate that he'd be able to escape and make that phone call? He couldn't have known Gotham PD would be stupid enough to place an idiot cop in the room with Joker, who would just happen to lose his cool. And when this guy was getting his ass beat by the Joker and while the Joker was escaping the holding room, not a single other cop saw this or did anything? Right. That makes sense. Why not just leave Joker alone in the holding room? Why even have a guy INSIDE the friggin room? Why not just outside the door?


Joker was almost like a student of human behavior, half of how all of his plans worked was because he knew how to push buttons and make people dance to his tune. the only time that failed was with the boats, and you saw that he went out of character when that happened. But he knew how Gordon would react, he knew how the dirty cop would react, he even knew how far he could push Dent and Batman to get them to do what he wanted. Thats what made him an amazing character.


There are more but I haven't seen it in a while.

FTR I loved TDK and Inception both. Inception actually had far, far fewer plot holes and stuff that went unexplained.