Airport Tunnel Rejected Again? **UPDATE** It's built!

[Slava]

The part that worries me about building this is the comments from Gord Lowe that this will eat up all of the budget for traffic and delay other projects. He makes the comment and they don't specify what these other projects are...but if they are major (I'm thinking Deerfoot/Glenmore) then its concerning.

[Bigtime]

Deerfoot and Glenmore has sucked for a lot of years, why not let it suck a while longer? This is a chance to actually think ahead and get something built ahead of time, perhaps if we don't do the tunnel now Airport Trail will be our Deerfoot/Glenmore in another 10 years?

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Slava

The part that worries me about building this is the comments from Gord Lowe that this will eat up all of the budget for traffic and delay other projects. He makes the comment and they don't specify what these other projects are...but if they are major (I'm thinking Deerfoot/Glenmore) then its concerning.

That's called making priorities given limited funding. The airport access situation given the long-known timeline for closing Barlow Trail has been neglected for years and has turned into facing an 11th-hour decision.

Sometimes (more like often) otherwise beneficial and worthy projects have to wait in order to build what is more acutely needed.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

That's called making priorities given limited funding. The airport access situation given the long-known timeline for closing Barlow Trail has been neglected for years and has turned into facing an 11th-hour decision.

Sometimes (more like often) otherwise beneficial and worthy projects have to wait in order to build what is more acutely needed.

Ya, I'm not a Lowe supporter or anything, just saying that if the airport tunnel today means no more roadwork/infrstructure imporovements for the next decade then this becomes a lot more questionable. Basically this turns into a vicious circle?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Deerfoot and Glenmore has sucked for a lot of years, why not let it suck a while longer? This is a chance to actually think ahead and get something built ahead of time, perhaps if we don't do the tunnel now Airport Trail will be our Deerfoot/Glenmore in another 10 years?

Sure...why improve anything then?

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Slava

Ya, I'm not a Lowe supporter or anything, just saying that if the airport tunnel today means no more roadwork/infrstructure imporovements for the next decade then this becomes a lot more questionable. Basically this turns into a vicious circle?

Where did you think the money would come from?

Building Deerfoot/Glenmore or, say, Crowchild between 24th Ave. and 5th Ave. means other things can't be built for some time, they just aren't always framed that way when proposed/approved.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Where did you think the money would come from?

Building Deerfoot/Glenmore or, say, Crowchild between 24th Ave. and 5th Ave. means other things can't be built for some time, they just aren't always framed that way when proposed/approved.

Fair enough, but doing one project in one corner of the city which means no other projects for a decade seems somewhat silly. I was slowly coming to the viewpoint that the airport tunnel was a good idea...but putting everything else on hold for a decade just makes me re-examine that thought.

Is it even true though? Is this either the airport tunnel or other projects?

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Slava

Sure...why improve anything then?

Not quite my point, Deerfoot/Glenmore also has the unfortunate situation of being within Provincial jurisdiction, so I think that is part of the reason for it taking much longer.

If anything it is the perfect example of how our lack of planning ahead has hurt the city, the airport underpass is a situation where we can actually plan for the future. If the cost of that is deferring a fix from shortsighted design a little longer than I'll take it.

I should also point out that I would barely use both an upgraded Deerfoot/Glenmore and Airport underpass. So no bias here.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Slava

Is it even true though? Is this either the airport tunnel or other projects?

Even if it is, we'd have to cut funding from even more projects if we wait ten years then bore under the runway.

[Slava]

^ Or just never go under the runway? By that point we had no way through for a decade, so maybe it was just unnecessary, right?

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Slava

Fair enough, but doing one project in one corner of the city which means no other projects for a decade seems somewhat silly. I was slowly coming to the viewpoint that the airport tunnel was a good idea...but putting everything else on hold for a decade just makes me re-examine that thought.

Is it even true though? Is this either the airport tunnel or other projects?

It is in a corner geographically speaking, but the regional implications have been expounded numerous times in this thread. Surely that doesn't need going-over again.

I wouldn't say it's true. It may mean a longer wait for some of the bigger projects, but I really don't think it means absolutely no transportation capital projects for a decade.

The need for the airport tunnel project is much more acute than any of the other big projects because of the temporal aspect involved. Any more delays means exponentially higher costs. The costs would grow such that doing the project would be crippling to the budget or prohibitive altogether leaving Calgarians on the hook to deal with the significant traffic and quality-of-life consequences.

Really it is the fault of past councils that this is all coming to light now when it could have been dealt with and managed much better than realizing the problem at the last minute and having to have a dialog about what has to be sacrificed to make the 11th hour solution a reality.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Slava

^ Or just never go under the runway? By that point we had no way through for a decade, so maybe it was just unnecessary, right?

That's like saying we never really needed Glenmore and Elbow because we already went so long without it, or don't need Deerfoot at Glenmore to be upgraded now, or that in twenty years we'll have gone so long without the 8th Ave Subway that we won't really need that either.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

It is in a corner geographically speaking, but the regional implications have been expounded numerous times in this thread. Surely that doesn't need going-over again.

I wouldn't say it's true. It may mean a longer wait for some of the bigger projects, but I really don't think it means absolutely no transportation capital projects for a decade.

The need for the airport tunnel project is much more acute than any of the other big projects because of the temporal aspect involved. Any more delays means exponentially higher costs. The costs would grow such that doing the project would be crippling to the budget or prohibitive altogether leaving Calgarians on the hook to deal with the significant traffic and quality-of-life consequences.

Really it is the fault of past councils that this is all coming to light now when it could have been dealt with and managed much better than realizing the problem at the last minute and having to have a dialog about what has to be sacrificed to make the 11th hour solution a reality.

I actually agree with everything that you're saying here. There is a great need for the tunnel. I guess my question is whether or not that need for the tunnel outweighs all of the other infrastructure projects for the next decade though?

I recognize fully that this what prioritization is all about and that not everything can be done at once. I also think that delays mean higher costs, but make no mistake there are costs to delaying the other infrastructure projects as well. Maybe they are not as calculable, or simply haven't been calculated and promoted in the media but they are just as real.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by SebC

That's like saying we never really needed Glenmore and Elbow because we already went so long without it, or don't need Deerfoot at Glenmore to be upgraded now, or that in twenty years we'll have gone so long without the 8th Ave Subway that we won't really need that either.

I don't even want to get started on Glenmore and Elbow because that is an atrocity! The subway should've been done from day one, and I recognize that.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Slava

The subway should've been done from day one, and I recognize that.

And have a stunted (think Edmonton-scaled) LRT system to show for it today? No thanks.

[moncton golden flames]

what is the estimated cost difference between the proposed airport tunnel and the cost of upgrading the surrounding infrastructure if the tunnel does not get built?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

And have a stunted (think Edmonton-scaled) LRT system to show for it today? No thanks.

Isn't that your argument for the airport tunnel though? We should put all of the other projects on hold (and have a somewhat stunted system as a result) so that we can have an efficiency there?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Slava

Isn't that your argument for the airport tunnel though? We should put all of the other projects on hold (and have a somewhat stunted system as a result) so that we can have an efficiency there?

c'mon, 'all' other other projects? maybe some, but not all.

[ken0042]

I guess I look at all of the other projects that were put off at the time; and those are the projects we are talking now as "being put off."

- Anderson/ Bow Bottom/ Deerfoot
- Glenmore/ Deerfoot (which as mentioned is provincial.)
- Crowchild over the river.

Had these and other similar projects been done "right" in the first place; the Airport tunnel would be into its 2nd year of construction by now. What we are talking about is getting this one done right to start with, and moving forward from there.

I sometimes take Deerfoot from the SE to downtown in the morning, and as many people there are exiting Memorial; there are more continuing north. With Stoney Trail having more expressways running off it; that should also take a lot of the Deerfoot traffic along with it. Now the Deerfoot interchanges at Anderson and Glenmore have lower traffic levels, and can wait an extra couple of years.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Slava

Isn't that your argument for the airport tunnel though? We should put all of the other projects on hold (and have a somewhat stunted system as a result) so that we can have an efficiency there?

That was never my argument and is a false dilemma. "All other" projects will not be put on hold.

However, to respond to the spirit of your argument, the two are not directly comparable.

Delaying the airport tunnel has direct, permanent and significant cost increases due to the impending construction of the parallel runway which will be in operation thereafter.

Delaying the subway construction did have associated cost and complexity increases, but nothing nearly to the scale of the airport tunnel, and they could (and have been) mitigated somewhat by ongoing preparations such as utility relocation and setbacks for new construction along 8th Avenue.

Also, the need for the subway had to be proven since the success of LRT was an unknown. Building the subway in the late 70s ran the risk of overbuilding for what could be needed. The need for the airport tunnel is easier to foresee due to the growth plans in the surrounding area being known and due to automobile traffic patterns being easier to predict.