ATDHE.net domain seized by Homeland Security

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

NHL can dictate the terms of the broadcasting rights agreement.

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

I'm aware that NHL is not in any position to dictate the terms right now.

'nuff said.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

It could also lead to higher profit and reduction in piracy.

If it truly had a chance to be successful one of the big 4 sports leagues would already be doing it. There's a reason that no sports league offers free streaming and it's because it wouldn't lead to more profits, it would just be more headaches and more cost to them to run those feeds. Right now all 4 leagues have a product that is excellent value for those who pay for it and the only good argument is that it would lead to less piracy, but no way it would lead to more profits. Unless you can show me how they can make the same figures from banner ads as they do from their subscribers the argument has no legs.

The NHL is a business and businesses don't suceed by giving away their product for free and that's what your asking them to do under the assumption it would bring this big mass of fans to the NHL, it won't.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by valo403

You want to tell me what I'm supposed to get from that other than we'll give it away for free and benefit from ads alone?

You get one half the structure. You're giving a limited version of the game center and if people want more they can upgrade otherwise they're stuck with the limited package. These people are already getting the limited package, just not from NHL. Doesn't it make sense to try and get some advertising revenue than none at all? These illegal stream users are generating traffic and ad revenue for the sites providing the illegal stream. Why not use their traffic to generate some revenue for NHL.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

'nuff said.

Take more posts out of context. You conveniently left out the second sentence from the second quote.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by HOOT

If it truly had a chance to be successful one of the big 4 sports leagues would already be doing it. There's a reason that no sports league offers free streaming and it's because it wouldn't lead to more profits, it would just be more headaches and more cost to them to run those feeds. Right now all 4 leagues have a product that is excellent value for those who pay for it and the only good argument is that it would lead to less piracy, but no way it would lead to more profits. Unless you can show me how they can make the same figures from banner ads as they do from their subscribers the argument has no legs.

The NHL is a business and businesses don't suceed by giving away their product for free and that's what your asking them to do under the assumption it would bring this big mass of fans to the NHL, it won't.

I definitely agree that NHL is a business and businesses don't succeed by giving away their products for free. But I doubt that the game center plays a massive role in their revenue. Their first and foremost goal is to sell tickets to the games. They also generate revenue from selling merchandises.

To me, providing free and limited streams on their site is more of a "sample" they give out at a grocery store. You try it and if you like it, upgrade to the full package. A casual fan may start to watch these free stream and their interest in hockey may grow which can benefit the league. In my opinion, game center lite or whatever they may provide for free is not their main product.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

Take more posts out of context. You conveniently left out the second sentence from the second quote.

They're not out of context. You completely contradicted yourself in a span of hours. The second sentence from the second quote is irrelevant.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

They're not out of context. You completely contradicted yourself in a span of hours. The second sentence from the second quote is irrelevant.

Let me rephrase it for you.

In order for the idea to work, it's going to take a lot of work with other parties such as local broadcasters and advertisers.

Right now NHL doesn't have enough power to dictate the terms of the contract which makes them hard to implement this idea today, tomorrow, or even next year. But keep in mind, it's only a proposal that can be used to combat piracy.

Nowhere in this thread have I said it would be possible for the NHL to introduce this tomorrow or anytime soon. But if they do, and if they can reduce piracy and generate a dollar more from the user currently using the illegal streams, the goal of the idea's been achieved.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

You get one half the structure. You're giving a limited version of the game center and if people want more they can upgrade otherwise they're stuck with the limited package. These people are already getting the limited package, just not from NHL. Doesn't it make sense to try and get some advertising revenue than none at all? These illegal stream users are generating traffic and ad revenue for the sites providing the illegal stream. Why not use their traffic to generate some revenue for NHL.

So tell me, why would anyone pay for a service that they can get for free? There's a small market that would be interested in the PVR and non-live games, but it's a fraction of the market. I don't know a sinlgle person who utilizes either of those capabilities on a regualr basis, and it certainly wasn't a motivating factor for any of them when it came to purchasing GC/CI. The motivating factor was watching live games, something you've now given them for free. If the argument is quality reduction you're not solving the intial issue you identified as a problem. A low quality free stream from the NHL will be trumped by a high quality pirated stream, so much for utilizing this to beat the piracy issue.

As for your sample argument, the NHL already gives away a ton of 'free samples'. Both Center Ice and Game Center have free preview periods every season, and the ultimate free sample is the local and national games that everyone gets to watch for, wait for it, free. There are multiple opportunities for people to be exposed to the gmae and the market expanded through free broadcasts. Giving away every game for free as opposed to the current system isn't going to suddenly create millions of new fans to drive the mass increase in revenues you'd require to offset the losses your plan brings to the table.

It is a terrible idea, there is absolutely nothing valuable to it.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

Nowhere in this thread have I said it would be possible for the NHL to introduce this tomorrow or anytime soon.

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

NHL can dictate the terms of the broadcasting rights agreement.

Note the present tense. Either you're lying or you're too stupid to be able to understand what you wrote.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

But I doubt that the game center plays a massive role in their revenue.

If you had to guess how many NHLCI/GC subscribers do you think the NHL has in the world?

Their first and foremost goal is to sell tickets to the games. They also generate revenue from selling merchandises.

Selling tickets isn't a big concern for any of the major sports. It's all about TV deals, and if you undermine those TV deals by offering it free online then those TV deal values drop along with the subscribers. The NHL probably has the worst TV deal out of all of the big four and you can't just undercut them so you can hope to get new fans visiting NHL.com.

To me, providing free and limited streams on their site is more of a "sample" they give out at a grocery store. You try it and if you like it, upgrade to the full package.

And they do! About 2-3 times a year they give a free preview of the full product, not some crappy version of it. Also that sample at the grocery store isn't a free for all, I can't sample everything in the store and if people could that grocery store would be closing down shortly.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Also that sample at the grocery store isn't a free for all, I can't sample everything in the store and if people could that grocery store would be closing down shortly.

Not if they made money by putting ads all over the store.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Note the present tense. Either you're lying or you're too stupid to be able to understand what you wrote.

What am I lying about. I rephrase what I was trying to communicate to you and your sitting here picking apart present tense past tense. If you have nothing to add to my last post, then you don't have to respond at all.

Originally Posted by valo403

So tell me, why would anyone pay for a service that they can get for free? There's a small market that would be interested in the PVR and non-live games, but it's a fraction of the market. I don't know a sinlgle person who utilizes either of those capabilities on a regualr basis, and it certainly wasn't a motivating factor for any of them when it came to purchasing GC/CI. The motivating factor was watching live games, something you've now given them for free. If the argument is quality reduction you're not solving the intial issue you identified as a problem. A low quality free stream from the NHL will be trumped by a high quality pirated stream, so much for utilizing this to beat the piracy issue.

As for your sample argument, the NHL already gives away a ton of 'free samples'. Both Center Ice and Game Center have free preview periods every season, and the ultimate free sample is the local and national games that everyone gets to watch for, wait for it, free. There are multiple opportunities for people to be exposed to the gmae and the market expanded through free broadcasts. Giving away every game for free as opposed to the current system isn't going to suddenly create millions of new fans to drive the mass increase in revenues you'd require to offset the losses your plan brings to the table.

It is a terrible idea, there is absolutely nothing valuable to it.

There's two main reasons why people use illegal streams, convenience and the cost. If it's just as convenient as the cost is the same, it's going to come down to the quality. It's not going to be hard for NHL beat them in terms of quality.


Only reason you think it's a terrible idea is that we're both working through different assumptions. My assumption is that advertisements can bring in enough revenue to offset the cost where as you don't think it's possible. Obviously it all comes down to that. It's no doubt a bad idea I'd NHL is losing more money but its a good idea if they can increase their revenue.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by valo403

As for your sample argument, the NHL already gives away a ton of 'free samples'. Both Center Ice and Game Center have free preview periods every season, and the ultimate free sample is the local and national games that everyone gets to watch for, wait for it, free. There are multiple opportunities for people to be exposed to the gmae and the market expanded through free broadcasts. Giving away every game for free as opposed to the current system isn't going to suddenly create millions of new fans to drive the mass increase in revenues you'd require to offset the losses your plan brings to the table.

It is a terrible idea, there is absolutely nothing valuable to it.

Have you actually tried to use the free GC package when it is available? I have, and it was unusable. First, I had to fill out all of my personal information and then when I attempted to submit it, it always came back denying me access because of some issue that, as far as I could tell, wasn't an issue on my end. I'm not alone in this either as I have heard multiple friends and CP posters comment on the same thing. Giving away a free month of GC is a great idea, but when it is so riddled with bugs it hurts the NHL's cause a lot more than it helps. Even if I wanted to pay for GC, I have no faith in it because of this.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Not if they made money by putting ads all over the store.

Yeah lets put internet ad banners in the stores.

I think you're discounting the revenue that advertisement can bring. Google's main source of income is advertisement and they got $23.651 billion as revenue in 2009.

So do you think they're stupid that they're giving away their products for free? Almost everything that Google develops, you can access it for free. They said it themselves, they do this so they can generate more traffic, hence more advertisements, which means more revenue for them.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

What am I lying about.

Do you have anterograde amnesia?

I rephrase what I was trying to communicate to you and your sitting here picking apart present tense past tense. If you have nothing to add to my last post, then you don't have to respond at all.

I'm just telling you that you completely contradicted yourself. Be a man and admit it instead of trying to deflect the truth with lame copouts.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Have you actually tried to use the free GC package when it is available? I have, and it was unusable. First, I had to fill out all of my personal information and then when I attempted to submit it, it always came back denying me access because of some issue that, as far as I could tell, wasn't an issue on my end. I'm not alone in this either as I have heard multiple friends and CP posters comment on the same thing. Giving away a free month of GC is a great idea, but when it is so riddled with bugs it hurts the NHL's cause a lot more than it helps. Even if I wanted to pay for GC, I have no faith in it because of this.

Nope, but I've used the full version. Even in its first year when it was still pretty buggy it was a pretty great product. Not as good as CI, but the mobility was a desirable feature for me at the time.

I agree that a demo is no good if it's unusable, that's certainly an issue that would need to be addressed.

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Do you have anterograde amnesia?

I'm just telling you that you completely contradicted yourself. Be a man and admit it instead of trying to deflect the truth with lame copouts.

Okay I admit I made a mistake in phrasing it that way, but like I said, that was not the message I was trying to communicate.

Are you happy now? Do you often miss the point of the message and analyze the grammar instead?

[Ark2]

Think of the buzz that this would garner for the NHL too. Any game you want can be streamed online at NHL.com with decent quality. This is something that would set it apart from other major sports in North America. We've seen this sort of thing done with the music industry and I honestly don't think it will be that long before professional sports take a stab at it as well. Subscription fees will either become a thing of the past, or the business models that are based upon them will ultimately collapse.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by FlamesPuck12

I think you're discounting the revenue that advertisement can bring. Google's main source of income is advertisement and they got $23.651 billion as revenue in 2009.

Well it works for search engine business platform, must mean it works for the NHL.

Why doesn't itunes give away all their products for free and just advertise a bunch? Why doesn't the music industry make their CDs free at the store level and just load the insert with ads?

Again...how many NHLCI/GC subscribers do you think there are in the world?

[FlamesPuck12]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Well it works for search engine business platform, must mean it works for the NHL.

I'm not saying NHL can make as much as Google. All I'm saying is that the revenue generated by ads shouldn't be discounted.