Egypt leaves the Internet, citizens revolt. Update: Internet's back, still revolting.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

They've been intervening for 30 years, why stop now?

OK, I will bite.

How has the US intervened in Egyptian politics the last 30 years? In fact I can pretty much make a case they have done NOTHING about those politics the last 30 years, other than to provide 2 billion dollars a year to the country....no where that money went i have no idea, but they provided it all the same.

Egypt has been a pretty stable area for a long long time and in that part of the world, is an accomplishment.

Obviously the people want change and they should and will get it,any free-thinking person would agree with that I assume.

This violence is on Mubarek and Mubarek alone, not on the US and whatever other conspiracy you believe in.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

They've been intervening for 30 years, why stop now?

How, pray tell? Did they assassinate Sadat? Did they install Mubarak? If anything, they have not been intervening at all...

[burn_this_city]

Egypt has been a military dictatorship since the 50's. The US has provided tens of billions in aid to the Egyptians. The majority of the money, over a billion a year, has been military aid. The entire egyptian system has been controlled by the military since they overthrew the monarchy. Nasser was in charge of the armed forces, so was Sadat, and same with Mubarak. A strong military/police apparatus would keep the army in power indefinitely.

I believe the US has some responsibility, they've been funding the army and regime for a long time. The tear gas canisters, Abrams tanks, APCs, F16s ect all came from the US.

You don't pay to arm thugs and pretend its not your fault when they use the weapons to suppress their populace.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Egypt has been a military dictatorship since the 50's. The US has provided tens of billions in aid to the Egyptians. The majority of the money, over a billion a year, has been military aid. The entire egyptian system has been controlled by the military since they overthrew the monarchy. Nasser was in charge of the armed forces, so was Sadat, and same with Mubarak. A strong military/police apparatus would keep the army in power indefinitely.

I believe the US has some responsibility, they've been funding the army and regime for a long time. The tear gas canisters, Abrams tanks, APCs, F16s ect all came from the US.

You don't pay to arm thugs and pretend its not your fault when they use the weapons to suppress their populace.

The military aid is a reward for Sadat's peace deal with Israel, and for leaving the Soviet "sphere". It's not "intervention".

[CaptainCrunch]

Thats a pretty lose definition of interferance. I guess you could then accuse the U.S. of militarily interfearing with any country that they provide military aid to.

Those #######s, they're directing Canada's military and government through their channels in NATO and NORAD.

Taking it a step further, I guess they're messing with countries economies and interfering in government when they provide normal aid to other countries. Those #######s they should stop.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Thats a pretty lose definition of interferance. I guess you could then accuse the U.S. of militarily interfearing with any country that they provide military aid to.

Those #######s, they're directing Canada's military and government through their channels in NATO and NORAD.

Taking it a step further, I guess they're messing with countries economies and interfering in government when they provide normal aid to other countries. Those #######s they should stop.

Not to mention that less than 50% of Canadians voted for Harper, they should come in and topple our government, how dare they interfere and then just leave us under his tyranny.

[burn_this_city]

Recipient
Military aid (USD Billions)
Iraq6.50
Afghanistan5.60
Israel2.75
Egypt1.75
Pakistan1.60
Colombia.834
Jordan.300
Palestine.100
Yemen.070

I guess the US doesnt interfere in these countries? At all? Are we really this crass? No influence peddling, no shaping what goes on in these countries?

[CaptainCrunch]

Bottom line is that the military aid probably hasn't had an effect, the American's liked this leadership because they moved out of the Soviet sphere, and gave up their Israel destroying dreams and somewhat moderated.

The only difference if they weren't getting aid from the American's is that they would have ruthlessly crushed the protestors using BDRM's T-80 tanks and you would have seen Hind helicopters and Mig 29's flying over the city.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Bottom line is that the military aid probably hasn't had an effect, the American's liked this leadership because they moved out of the Soviet sphere, and gave up their Israel destroying dreams and somewhat moderated.

Seems like they have lots and lots of equipment to use, so I would argue the 2-billion a year for how many years (?) has, in fact "had an effect."

The only difference if they weren't getting aid from the American's is that they would have ruthlessly crushed the protestors using BDRM's T-80 tanks and you would have seen Hind helicopters and Mig 29's flying over the city.

So in two paragraphs you go from saying the aid hasn't had an effect, but then go on to say that if they didn't get it then they would somehow still have tanks and planes to ruthlessly slaughter their own people? What exactly are you arguing? That they would of had Russian gear?

And I for one refuse to believe that if the Egyptian gov't slaughtered a bunch of their own people with tanks and planes that in this day and age no other nation would step in and help them.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Recipient
Military aid (USD Billions)
Iraq6.50
Afghanistan5.60
Israel2.75
Egypt1.75
Pakistan1.60
Colombia.834
Jordan.300
Palestine.100
Yemen.070

I guess the US doesnt interfere in these countries? At all? Are we really this crass? No influence peddling, no shaping what goes on in these countries?

As I said before - without most of this aid, not all of it, Israel would be destroyed and who knows what else would have happened in the Middle East.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Seems like they have lots and lots of equipment to use, so I would argue the 2-billion a year for how many years (?) has, in fact "had an effect."

Prove to me that its had a effect on how Egypt was governed? show me where the influence is.

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

So in two paragraphs you go from saying the aid hasn't had an effect, but then go on to say that if they didn't get it then they would somehow still have tanks and planes to ruthlessly slaughter their own people? What exactly are you arguing? That they would of had Russian gear?

And I for one refuse to believe that if the Egyptian gov't slaughtered a bunch of their own people with tanks and planes that in this day and age no other nation would step in and help them.

I will grant that the American's have had one nice hammer during this whole thing to hold over Egypts head and that is the aid.

If things had unfolded, and they would have not had this agreement with the American's and continued to procure Russian made weapons and Russian based military aid, do you think it would have prevented them from deploying their army in a radically different way?

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Prove to me that its had a effect on how Egypt was governed? show me where the influence is.

I will get back to you on this one.

I will grant that the American's have had one nice hammer during this whole thing to hold over Egypts head and that is the aid.

If things had unfolded, and they would have not had this agreement with the American's and continued to procure Russian made weapons and Russian based military aid, do you think it would have prevented them from deploying their army in a radically different way?

Before I can answer, are we assuming that Russia has and intends to keep its current relationship with the US, or that by Egypt purchasing Russian equipment and not the US` aid that relations between Russia and the US would be very different?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I will get back to you on this one.



Before I can answer, are we assuming that Russia has and intends to keep its current relationship with the US, or that by Egypt purchasing Russian equipment and not the US` aid that relations between Russia and the US would be very different?

Lets play the assumption that Russia places its own goals ahead of its relationship with the U.S.

Lets also play to the assumption, that the Russians who have always wanted hard currency, or were willing to trade weapons for favorable trade terms had negotiated a similar deal in the late 70's to keep Egypt as a close friend and trading partner.

This is all assumptive historical physics at this choice.

I will state for the record that America practiced a little bit of long distance influence on Egypt during this crisis by subtly threatening the aid agreement.

But Russia wouldn't have the same sensibilities if they were in America's place, so I have my doubts that Egypts reaction to the rioters would have been so measured as they were in this case.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Lets play the assumption that Russia places its own goals ahead of its relationship with the U.S.

Lets also play to the assumption, that the Russians who have always wanted hard currency, or were willing to trade weapons for favorable trade terms had negotiated a similar deal in the late 70's to keep Egypt as a close friend and trading partner.

This is all assumptive historical physics at this choice.

I will state for the record that America practiced a little bit of long distance influence on Egypt during this crisis by subtly threatening the aid agreement.

But Russia wouldn't have the same sensibilities if they were in America's place, so I have my doubts that Egypts reaction to the rioters would have been so measured as they were in this case.

Assuming Russia didn't care about its relations with the US then I would be inclined to agree that the Egyptian response to the demonstrations would have been much "less measured" than it has been. But if the Russians did care about not pissing off the US then the Egyptian response would have been similar. The last thing the Russians need is the entire first world watching on CNN as Egypt blows itself to hell with their weapons.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Assuming Russia didn't care about its relations with the US then I would be inclined to agree that the Egyptian response to the demonstrations would have been much "less measured" than it has been. But if the Russians did care about not pissing off the US then the Egyptian response would have been similar. The last thing the Russians need is the entire first world watching on CNN as Egypt blows itself to hell with their weapons.

Why? They'd just sell a lot more weapons.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Why? They'd just sell a lot more weapons.

Perhaps, but the international community would come down on them like a tonne of bricks. The economic sanctions alone by some countries for allowing the Egyptian situation to escalate to slaughter would be devestating to the Russians.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Perhaps, but the international community would come down on them like a tonne of bricks. The economic sanctions alone by some countries for allowing the Egyptian situation to escalate to slaughter would be devestating to the Russians.

would these sanctions be imposed through the UN?

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

would these sanctions be imposed through the UN?

I don't really have an answer to be honest. Even if the UN did sweet eff all (hell, even when they "do something" it means sweet eff all) I would hope that nations would independently (autonomously?) impose sanctions against the Russians if things went to slaughter with their aid and weapons.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

As I said before - without most of this aid, not all of it, Israel would be destroyed and who knows what else would have happened in the Middle East.

Really?? By whom? The Arabs? They tried that a couple times and got annihilated.

[peter12]

Does anyone get a little disgusted with all of the smug Western encouragement/approval of the Egyptian demonstrations. They don't need cheerleaders, they need bandages. Stop acting like you have common cause.

These people are going through something which none of us has or hopefully ever will go through before.