Egypt leaves the Internet, citizens revolt. Update: Internet's back, still revolting.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

If you think the Islamists are not going to take this revolution over, you are naive. Who is going to fill the political void, some secular democratically elected party?

Considering the Islamists support is pretty fragmented, I fail to see how they would win a majority in parlimentary elections. Egypt is a pretty diverse country, no political bloc will have unfettered dominance. Sounds like you've been watching too much Fox news about the evils of Islam and its incompatibility with democracy. Besides not every Islamic party is equal, some are much softer than others.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Considering the Islamists support is pretty fragmented, I fail to see how they would win a majority in parlimentary elections. Egypt is a pretty diverse country, no political bloc will have unfettered dominance. Sounds like you've been watching too much Fox news about the evils of Islam and its incompatibility with democracy. Besides not every Islamic party is equal, some are much softer than others.

I don't watch Fox News I just collect facts. Facts are that almost every middle eastern country is rated very low on the democracy scale, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra...he_middle_east.

I wonder why that is? cause and effect would tell me that Islam (at least how it is practised in the Middle East) and democracy are incompatible. I haven't said that it is forbidden by the Koran, in fact it might even be permitted, but no moderate Islamists seem to be able to run a country fro very long.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

I don't watch Fox News I just collect facts. Facts are that almost every middle eastern country is rated very low on the democracy scale, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra...he_middle_east.

I wonder why that is? cause and effect would tell me that Islam (at least how it is practised in the Middle East) and democracy are incompatible. I haven't said that it is forbidden by the Koran, in fact it might even be permitted, but no moderate Islamists seem to be able to run a country fro very long.

Cause and effect tells me that America's unrelenting support of the Israelis' and their local puppet governments, which have ruled over the region for 30+ years have more to do with the extremism than Islam. These people make on average $2 a day and people here wonder why they fight back and hate the west.

This whole revolution further exposes the utter hypocrisy the west thrives on.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

I don't watch Fox News I just collect facts. Facts are that almost every middle eastern country is rated very low on the democracy scale, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra...he_middle_east.

I wonder why that is? cause and effect would tell me that Islam (at least how it is practised in the Middle East) and democracy are incompatible. I haven't said that it is forbidden by the Koran, in fact it might even be permitted, but no moderate Islamists seem to be able to run a country fro very long.

Liberal democracy is incompatible with a lot of particular cultures. There are significant issues with democracy in Russia, check out the nepotism in Japan, Italian democracy has it's failures and even the United States have such extreme inequalities in wealth and power that as a nation they pose a very real threat to other countries due to economic pursuits.

You are correct that there are Islamic traditions and values that compromise democracy, but generally, the more people that feel they have input into the governance of a country, the less extreme the behaviour of that country.

I just don't see where the legitimacy of the claim that Egyptians should not enjoy self-determination comes from.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Cause and effect tells me that America's unrelenting support of the Israelis' and their local puppet governments, which have ruled over the region for 30+ years have more to do with the extremism than Islam. These people make on average $2 a day and people here wonder why they fight back and hate the west.

This whole revolution further exposes the utter hypocrisy the west thrives on.

Without US support Israel would not have existed after 1967 or 1973, and if you are ok with that then I guess we should stop talking about this because we are not going to ever agree.

And this the fundamental cop out that every middle eastern discussion ends with. What does Israel have to do with the average Egyptian making $2 and not having jobs? I thought this was what the revolution was about?

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Liberal democracy is incompatible with a lot of particular cultures. There are significant issues with democracy in Russia, check out the nepotism in Japan, Italian democracy has it's failures and even the United States have such extreme inequalities in wealth and power that as a nation they pose a very real threat to other countries due to economic pursuits.

You are correct that there are Islamic traditions and values that compromise democracy, but generally, the more people that feel they have input into the governance of a country, the less extreme the behaviour of that country.

I just don't see where the legitimacy of the claim that Egyptians should not enjoy self-determination comes from.

I never said they shouldn't have self determination, I said that a thriving democracy is not going to result from it.

[Savvy27]

I'd rather wait to see how it plays out than declare it a failure at the outset, but I understand your pessimism.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

Without US support Israel would not have existed after 1967 or 1973, and if you are ok with that then I guess we should talking about this because we are not going to ever agree.

And this the fundamental cop out that every middle eastern discussion ends with. What does Israel have to do with the average Egyptian making $2 and not having jobs? I thought this was what the revolution was about?

When did the right for self determination of 7 million people outstrip the same rights of 80 million people next door? The Americans allow these dictatorships to exists so they can control the balance of power in the middle east.

I have no problem with the existence of Israel. I do however have a problem with the Palenstinian situation. Hopefully now they the Israelis dont have their puppet next door, they'll be inclined to make some actual concessions for a realistic palestinian state.

I wonder if the $2 a day has anything to do with living in an autocratic state run by the military, hmmmm. These people want legitimate opportunities to feed their families and live comfortably, things that everyone want.

Just to add, Islamic extremism is a bigger cop out than Israel.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

When did the right for self determination of 7 million people outstrip the same rights of 80 million people next door? The Americans allow these dictatorships to exists so they can control the balance of power in the middle east.

I have no problem with the existence of Israel. I do however have a problem with the Palenstinian situation. Hopefully now they the Israelis dont have their puppet next door, they'll be inclined to make some actual concessions for a realistic palestinian state.

I wonder if the $2 a day has anything to do with living in an autocratic state run by the military, hmmmm. These people want legitimate opportunities to feed their families and live comfortably, things that everyone want.

Just to add, Islamic extremism is a bigger cop out than Israel.

So Israel and the USA are responsible for all the ills of the middle east eh?

OK then.

You say you have no problem with the existance of Israel...well that's nice I guess. Here is the problem though, they don't exist without the backing of the USA among other nations.


And no, Islamic extremism is most certainly NOT a bigger cop out than Israel. It's real, it's alive and well, and it has one intention only when it comes to anyone not practicing Islam as they see it should be. That cannot be allowed to occur in Egypt. It gives me chills every time i think about that quote from Bin Laden to the Pakistani journalist shortly after 9/11.

“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.”

Mubarek has to go, I am not questiong that whatsoever and the people in the streets have every right to make that happen. The thing is though, that the rest of the world (not just the USA and Israel) need someone in there who is still an ally to the West/Democracy. Both geographically and politically it is a massive speedbump for many of those with bad intentions. If that changes drastically, it could be a problem unlike we have ever seen as far as how that entire part of the world transforms.

Sometimes you have to make a deal with the devil you know, because the one you don't know could bring a whole whack of unsolvable problems with him.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

When did the right for self determination of 7 million people outstrip the same rights of 80 million people next door? The Americans allow these dictatorships to exists so they can control the balance of power in the middle east.

I have no problem with the existence of Israel. I do however have a problem with the Palenstinian situation. Hopefully now they the Israelis dont have their puppet next door, they'll be inclined to make some actual concessions for a realistic palestinian state.

I wonder if the $2 a day has anything to do with living in an autocratic state run by the military, hmmmm. These people want legitimate opportunities to feed their families and live comfortably, things that everyone want.

Just to add, Islamic extremism is a bigger cop out than Israel.

Yes because Islamic extremism is the figment of Fox News imagination? Just the bogeyman created by western powers to justify their interventions? This is the cop out I am talking about.

Linking Israel to every ill that the middle east is the favourite trick, it is funny because the same middle east countries that have a problem with Israel don't seem to speak out in the defence all others that might be "oppressed" like multiple African countries or even Asian countries. They have made the middle east about Islam and politics, not about human rights or the rights of the Palestinians, lets not delude ourselves.

By supporting Hamas and Hezbollah they have sent the signal that they don't want a negotiated settlement of Palestine, so putting that at Israel feet is the classic cop out.

[CaptainCrunch]

If the government falls, the U.S. can waive a pretty big stick in the face of any new government that forms considering that the U.S. sends about $2 billion bucks a year to Egypt in Military and Economic Aid.

Israel also imports $350 million dollars worth of Egyptian goods versus exporting about $150 million doolars worth of goods to Egypt.

So Economically I think there are some very large hammers at play.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So Israel and the USA are responsible for all the ills of the middle east eh?

OK then.

You say you have no problem with the existance of Israel...well that's nice I guess. Here is the problem though, they don't exist without the backing of the USA among other nations.


And no, Islamic extremism is most certainly NOT a bigger cop out than Israel. It's real, it's alive and well, and it has one intention only when it comes to anyone not practicing Islam as they see it should be. That cannot be allowed to occur in Egypt. It gives me chills every time i think about that quote from Bin Laden to the Pakistani journalist shortly after 9/11.

“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.”

Mubarek has to go, I am not questiong that whatsoever and the people in the streets have every right to make that happen. The thing is though, that the rest of the world (not just the USA and Israel) need someone in there who is still an ally to the West/Democracy. Both geographically and politically it is a massive speedbump for many of those with bad intentions. If that changes drastically, it could be a problem unlike we have ever seen as far as how that entire part of the world transforms.

Sometimes you have to make a deal with the devil you know, because the one you don't know could bring a whole whack of unsolvable problems with him.

Quite a world you live in, discard your ideals when they don't suit your pursuits. Thats the textbook definition of hypocrisy. I wonder how things would fly in America if a foreign country tried to maintain control, oh yeah, a revolution already happened, oops. Basically you think forcing millions into bondage is acceptable so the West can run their affairs without any thought to those living outside their borders. Tried that for 70 years and guess what it isnt working.

Not sure where I said the problems in the middle east are entirely Israel, feel free to highlight that quote since my eyes appear to be failing me.

What does one nonsense quote from Bin Laden have to do with this? Oh yeah, I forgot, these Islamophobic arguments require blind fear mongering to gain any traction.

The nonsense I've heard from free people over the last few days highlights that some of you deserve the same freedoms the Egyptians had until now.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Quite a world you live in, discard your ideals when they don't suit your pursuits. Thats the textbook definition of hypocrisy. I wonder how things would fly in America if a foreign country tried to maintain control, oh yeah, a revolution already happened, oops. Basically you think forcing millions into bondage is acceptable so the West can run their affairs without any thought to those living outside their borders. Tried that for 70 years and guess what it isnt working.

Not sure where I said the problems in the middle east are entirely Israel, feel free to highlight that quote since my eyes appear to be failing me.

What does one nonsense quote from Bin Laden have to do with this? Oh yeah, I forgot, these Islamophobic arguments require blind fear mongering to gain any traction.

The nonsense I've heard from free people over the last few days highlights that some of you deserve the same freedoms the Egyptians had until now.

"Cause and effect tells me that America's unrelenting support of the Israelis' and their local puppet governments, which have ruled over the region for 30+ years have more to do with the extremism than Islam."

[TurnedTheCorner]

I know this is a serious matter, but every time I read the subject, I get the mental image of people rioting because of the internet being down.

[burn_this_city]

Pretty sure that says the American policy has more to do with the extremism, which is political in nature, than the religion.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Pretty sure that says the American policy has more to do with the extremism, which is political in nature, than the religion.

And religion plays no part in the politics of the middle east, so if we hypothetically take Islam out of the equation in the middle east there would still be extremism?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Quite a world you live in, discard your ideals when they don't suit your pursuits. Thats the textbook definition of hypocrisy. I wonder how things would fly in America if a foreign country tried to maintain control, oh yeah, a revolution already happened, oops. Basically you think forcing millions into bondage is acceptable so the West can run their affairs without any thought to those living outside their borders. Tried that for 70 years and guess what it isnt working.

What in the free world are you talking about? I pretty clearly said the people have the right to revolt and that Mubarek has to go.

Not sure where I said the problems in the middle east are entirely Israel, feel free to highlight that quote since my eyes appear to be failing me.

Wanna explain what this means then?

Originally Posted by YOU

Cause and effect tells me that America's unrelenting support of the Israelis' and their local puppet governments, which have ruled over the region for 30+ years have more to do with the extremism than Islam. These people make on average $2 a day and people here wonder why they fight back and hate the west.

What does one nonsense quote from Bin Laden have to do with this? Oh yeah, I forgot, these Islamophobic arguments require blind fear mongering to gain any traction.

Blind fearmongering?? Are you serious? Are you suggesting that extremism in the middle east towards freedom all over the world, and quotes from the head of Hezbollah wanting to eradicate every Jew are all just a figment of my imagination? And now I am an "Islamophobe" if I am afraid of any extremist gaining power in the single largest popultaed arab country. Quite the world YOU live in i would say.

The nonsense I've heard from free people over the last few days highlights that some of you deserve the same freedoms the Egyptians had until now.

Wow...just wow.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Pretty sure that says the American policy has more to do with the extremism, which is political in nature, than the religion.

You would think, but then I note the distinct lack of Russian Orthodox, Buddhist, and Baptist murdering fanatics. Your assertion that Mubarak is an Israeli puppet is humorous...

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Pretty sure that says the American policy has more to do with the extremism, which is political in nature, than the religion.

Then why have the extremists attacked people in , England, Spain, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Tanzania, Tunisia, Pakistan, Yemen, Morocco, etc etc etc, all in the last 8 years??

[billybob123]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Your assertion that Mubarak is an Israeli puppet is humorous...

I don't want to speak for him, but I believe BTC was saying that Mubarak is an American puppet, not an Israeli puppet.

What I don't get is people say "Egypt can elect who they want, as long as it's ok with us". Doesn't seem then that it's "who they want".

Extremism in the form of suicide bombers comes easily when people have nothing to live for. It's easy to convince people to die for something when it's a viable alternative to living.