I've spoken with very few atheists who go so far as to remove Christmas entirely. As I already tried to point out, the history of Christmas is complex, and it's as much a cultural phenomenon as a religious one.
So an atheist may just celebrate and partake of the cultural aspects of it without having to celebrate a birthday for someone they don't find quite as important as some other people do.
I've spoken with very few atheists who go so far as to remove Christmas entirely. As I already tried to point out, the history of Christmas is complex, and it's as much a cultural phenomenon as a religious one.
So an atheist may just celebrate and partake of the cultural aspects of it without having to celebrate a birthday for someone they don't find quite as important as some other people do.
As you pointed out? You sent me a picture of Santa Claus and told me its complex.
I get the point though, I have yet to meet any Christian that makes every effort to remove the cultural phenomenon aspect out of Christmas, I'm sure they exist but not in vast numbers. Likely just a day to embrace like anyone else, they just happen to hold the day closer to their hearts.
Just curious if any of CP's finest athiests go as far as to remove themselves from the day altogether. Mention of it just gets the arse hairs in a knot though apparently. And I'm sure Christians partake in many of your examples, yes even Halloween.
I've yet to meet an atheist who does not celebrate something on the 24/25th of December, why would they? Seem's like an odd question, I think its rather not us who get our arse hairs in a knot but some Christians who view secularization and accepting the fact there are others who hold celebrations on that week which are not Christian based. After all its the 'war on Christmas' we have to hear about every year from Fox news and the Christian right, which seems quite a bit about nothing as the vast majority of Christians and others enjoy the holiday just fine even if some people say happy holidays to reflect the diversity of people we live amongst.
There is some interesting roots by the way to how this whole 'war on Christmas' thing started, it actually has its roots from way back and was based on fear of immigrants and other racist overtones, but thats another discussion.
There is a very important distinction that needs to be made here, that is cultural Christianity is a rather recent form of celebration of a religious tradition put on with a new twist, non belief or just following the event without the religious aspect of it. This is very powerfully demonstrated in the very non-religious nordic countries who put on quite the holiday display of the Christmas/Yule traditions with religious and pagan traditions all mixed up together. People sing the religious songs, people even go to church for mass, all while being mostly non believers.
I grew up in a rather secular family, we had my mother and one sister who had would could only be seen as a very deistic view on God and really didn't have a very strong belief in that. Every Christmas in Canada we played Christmas music, watched all the Christmas movies we could and enjoyed the holiday like my friends religious families, I guess the only difference was at no point was God/Jesus ever brought up nor did we attend Church during the holiday. In fact thinking back, even my rather religious friends' families were often very rarely invoking the religious aspect of it.
A geneticist who is also a believer explains himself in Newsweek today:
You’re a scientist and a person of faith. How do you reconcile the two?
Well, I’ve not had a problem reconciling science and faith since I became a believer at age 27, when I was already on a path to becoming a geneticist and a physician. Basically, science is the way to uncover valid, trustworthy information about how nature works, about things about the natural world. But if you limit yourself to the kinds of questions that science can ask, you’re leaving out some other things that I think are also pretty important, like why are we here and what’s the meaning of life and is there a God? Those are not scientific questions. I simply would argue you need to be thoughtful when you’re asking a question—is this a faith question or a science question? As long as one keeps that distinction clearly in mind, then I don’t see a conflict.
There is, of course, a group of rather vocal people who disagree with that, people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. I obviously don’t agree with their perspective, but I refuse to demonize them. I think they share with me the awe of what science can teach us about nature and the joy of that discovery and the promise that has for bettering the human condition. They don’t share with me the sense that there are other valid ways of finding truth. In terms of being the director of NIH, I don’t think anybody who’s worked with me would be able to identify a circumstance where my personal beliefs about faith have in any way interfered with my role as a scientific leader.
Basically, science is the way to uncover valid, trustworthy information about how nature works, about things about the natural world. But if you limit yourself to the kinds of questions that science can ask, you’re leaving out some other things that I think are also pretty important, like why are we here and what’s the meaning of life and is there a God? Those are not scientific questions. I simply would argue you need to be thoughtful when you’re asking a question—is this a faith question or a science question? As long as one keeps that distinction clearly in mind, then I don’t see a conflict.
I think this is a fair point to make but why does one need God in order to meaningfully ask those questions? Isn't that what philosophy is all about?
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The of and to a in is I that it for you was with on as have but be they
Just curious if any of CP's finest athiests go as far as to remove themselves from the day altogether. Mention of it just gets the arse hairs in a knot though apparently. And I'm sure Christians partake in many of your examples, yes even Halloween.
Who exactly has "arse hairs in a twist" at the mention of this bizarre "remove themselves from the day altogether"? What's his name?
This whole "War on Christmas" and "angry Atheists hate Christmas" business is a paranoid fantasy, and you seem to be trying to play it both ways.
Your message seems to be"you atheists hate Christmas, why do you celebrate Christmas when you hate it?" without recognizing the somewhat obvious flaw in logic (we don't hate it, that's why we take part).
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Who exactly has "arse hairs in a twist" at the mention of this bizarre "remove themselves from the day altogether"? What's his name?
This whole "War on Christmas" and "angry Atheists hate Christmas" business is a paranoid fantasy, and you seem to be trying to play it both ways.
Your message seems to be"you atheists hate Christmas, why do you celebrate Christmas when you hate it?" without recognizing the somewhat obvious flaw in logic (we don't hate it, that's why we take part).
First off I am not labelling Athiests as people who hate Christmas with some sort of passion nor are they naturally angry like Clark Griswold's Father-in-law. I don't play sides but I actually like to see different viewpoints (I see it as productive), I don't have ill-will to any Athiest and to some extent (in regard to flaws in organized religious systems) I am right there as well on those topics. But I still find value in the faith. I painted my comment like I was trying to stake claim or something for Christians, yeah it was stupid and completely my fault, I was more or less looking to joke around but I just let it ride and derailed the whole frig'n thread. I've just always thought of Christmas in North America as the holiday that progressively moved from sacred to secular. And I haven't been an Athiest since adolescence, over time my thoughts evolved to wanting something more hence the appeal in believing in God, it's been awhile and I know we have some Athiests here so I'm interested on their take on things. I got my answer, it's a complete non-issue and I'm cool with that.
Of course your pastor friend falls back on "faith," what do you think believing in a religion entails?
What, to you, is the foundation of belief? Provable fact? Nothing wrong with that, but it won't work with religion, and you shouldn't think negatively of someone or what they believe in based merely on what you deem as them having "faith." You have faith your wife won't cheat on you, and that, in itself is not detestable. Faith taken by itself is not a negative. Faith in something on its own is often seen as a positive thing, still, in our modern society.
Interesting...a common example of the equivocation fallacy. Very sneaky.
Religious "faith" criticized by atheists: Belief without or in spite of the evidence. "Faith" that your wife won't cheat: Closer in meaning to the word "trust".
Of course, the trust form of faith is used in religion as well, but that's not what the issue is.
Over a century ago, Nietzsche observed, “Almost 2,000 years and no new God!” Indeed, though hundreds of new religions appear and disappear every year, it has been centuries since a truly new great religion has appeared on this planet. We are overdue for a new god.
Over a century ago, Nietzsche observed, “Almost 2,000 years and no new God!” Indeed, though hundreds of new religions appear and disappear every year, it has been centuries since a truly new great religion has appeared on this planet. We are overdue for a new god.
There are new gods, they just aren't called god anymore.
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Last edited by Weiser Wonder; 12-23-2010 at 08:49 AM.
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Over a century ago, Nietzsche observed, “Almost 2,000 years and no new God!” Indeed, though hundreds of new religions appear and disappear every year, it has been centuries since a truly new great religion has appeared on this planet. We are overdue for a new god.
Can I tell you the good news about Xenu? Just provide a $1000 deposit, and I will reveal his great wisdom.
over a century ago, nietzsche observed, “almost 2,000 years and no new god!” indeed, though hundreds of new religions appear and disappear every year, it has been centuries since a truly new great religion has appeared on this planet. We are overdue for a new god.
Over a century ago, Nietzsche observed, “Almost 2,000 years and no new God!” Indeed, though hundreds of new religions appear and disappear every year, it has been centuries since a truly new great religion has appeared on this planet. We are overdue for a new god.
It does seem a little odd the myths and legends of primitive savages from 2000 years ago would somehow be cause for us to drop to our knees in tearful worship.
Just saying.
Cowperson
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Over a century ago, Nietzsche observed, “Almost 2,000 years and no new God!” Indeed, though hundreds of new religions appear and disappear every year, it has been centuries since a truly new great religion has appeared on this planet. We are overdue for a new god.
