Public schools with "Christ-centered Learning Environment" - here in Alberta

[firebug]

Originally Posted by puckluck

So you take your kids to a Christmas ("winter holiday") party at school, but have a problem with religion in school?

Am I missing something here?

Yes.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by puckluck

So you take your kids to a Christmas ("winter holiday") party at school, but have a problem with religion in school?

Am I missing something here?

Christmas is all about having fun and getting ready for the holiday season. A lot of people celebrate Christmas just to have a good time. They don't care about all the stuff about Jesus or what was written in the bible.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I'm not calling you out or anything, but I'm pretty curious what exactly you mean by this.

Magical thinking in general for one. (And religions are of course not the only source of this). Correlation does not equal causation, but magical thinking encourages one to think that it does (I prayed for a bike, I got a bike, therefore my prayer worked). The brain is wired to make decision about causation before any reasoning is applied, and religion I think exploits this (not intentionally, it's evolved to do so).

Read The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan for more info along those lines.

Obedience and subjugation to authority is another. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding". Rather than thinking for one's self, one is encouraged (or required even) to see the Bible and/or the church as the ultimate authority in one's life, since they're proxies for God. And not even just authority, saying that there's one absolute Truth (tm) fosters an absolutist style thinking.

Us vs. them, teaching a child that their way of thinking and their beliefs are True and everyone else's are false and deceptions from satan. Rather than building bridges and finding common ground, it's instead my way or the highway. Christians are in this world but not of this world is a popular phrase.

There are other things more specific to evangelical circles as well, such as the combination of faith/healing/prosperity and the social structure of the church... if someone is visibly poor, their faith must not be very strong and there's a social influence that ties in with that. Or if you aren't healed, and you prayed, then it's some sin in your life or something you are doing wrong or your relationship with god isn't right (god's promises are true, so god can't be at fault), that's not the kind of thing to be feeding into a kid's head.

Of course I realize not every single church or denomination has all of these things, and that there are other sources for bad patterns of thought, that's why I said the details are important.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Christmas is all about having fun and getting ready for the holiday season. A lot of people celebrate Christmas just to have a good time. They don't care about all the stuff about Jesus or what was written in the bible.

Exactly. I'm an atheist, but I still value Christmas as a time to get together with family, exchange gifts, eat too much turkey and baked goods, drink rum and eggnog, and generally be merry. The holiday has no religious significance to me, but I still enjoy it.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

I have no intention of forcing my kids to attend Church or believe in any particular doctrine, but I would strongly consider sending them to a private school as a protest to the politically correct BS that has enveloped the public school system. "Winter Holiday" my ass.

I fail to see what was 'politically correct' nor what was 'BS' in this schools performance.

If anything, there is far more history in celebrating the changing of the seasons at this time of year than anything else.

I fail to see any basis for Christian origins for the following at this time of year:
-Decorated evergreen trees
-flying reindeer
-elves
-turkey
-exchanging gifts
-gathering together with family and loved ones
-school performances

Other than the name, how is this a 'Christian' holiday?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Orange

I'm missing the question here because you admit that they aren't bringing up Adam and Eve in science class which is what I was saying is likely not happening.

I'm not saying for someone who wants a secular school there isn't a problem with having some of the stuff I mentioned I'm just saying there's a huge difference between learning about Adam and Eve in science class than there is saying "God bless you" if someone sneezes.

Right, but you said "I'd say it's far more likely that the parent is getting upset over 'minor' things...", and then list things which may not actually be all that minor.

There's a lot between the extremes of creationism in science class and "god bless you", some of which could be enough to warrant the parents' concerns.

Without further details, it's very difficult to say if it crosses a line or not, that's my point.

Originally Posted by Orange

I wonder if changing this public school with "Christ-centered learning Environment" into a simple Catholic school would be a plausible solution if the amount of Catholic's in the town/school was high enough I think it would be the easiest one.

Then the province would have to build and staff public schools, since a public school has to be available by law I think.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

In response to Photon, I was going to say pretty much the same thing as Orange.

Afterall, whether a Catholic board is running it or not, the schools have to abide by the provincial carriculum, and that doesn't include talking about Adam and Eve in Biology.

Honestly, after reading the article, I can't help but think this is a parent over reacting and exagerating just a little bit (of course they would be the first parent in the history of the world to do so). They say that when the kids aren't in religion class, that's the only time they aren't discussing it, and that they are "Exposed to it" all day. Sure, maybe in kindergarten, it's a little more bible heavy, as let's face it, it's more of a socializing thing, they aren't exactly talking about evolution or math. So yeah, when they're singing songs, or reading stories, Jesus probably sneaks in every so often. And really, even to the angry persecuted athiest, what difference does it make if the kids are reading about cinderella or Jesus, as most of them are so happy to point out, they're both fairytales. When it comes to lessons about sharing, and not being a jerk, what does it matter who the protagonist in the story is?

However, I'd be willing to bet that the grades after that, where most rational people, myself included, would get upset if Jesus was brought up in science class, follow the same legally mandated carriculum as every other school in the province.

Let's say you move to Raymond, AB (Go Comets!) where the population is predominantly mormon.

Through a local plebiscite, the voters determine that the High School will now be taken in by the LDS School Board and it will now be a "Joseph Smith-centered Curriculum"

Would you be fine with the situation provided that your kids could opt out of the 30-minute per day 'institute' class? Or would you feel that there would be ideological bleed-through throughout the balance of the curriculum and therefore prefer that a secular schooling option be provided?

[simmonjam1]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

I have no intention of forcing my kids to attend Church or believe in any particular doctrine, but I would strongly consider sending them to a private school as a protest to the politically correct BS that has enveloped the public school system. "Winter Holiday" my ass.

I disagree with part of your statement. I think a lot of people look at this with blinders on so they only have a Western world view perspective.

Last year at my work we received a ppt that showed slides with write ups showing the various holidays celebrated by different people from early December to early January. There was 28 different holidays listed; some religious, some civic. I was surprised by that amount. So I'd say Winter Holiday is correct as it is all encompassing.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by simmonjam1

I disagree with part of your statement. I think a lot of people look at this with blinders on so they only have a Western world view perspective.

Last year at my work we received a ppt that showed slides with write ups showing the various holidays celebrated by different people from early December to early January. There was 28 different holidays listed; some religious, some civic. I was surprised by that amount. So I'd say Winter Holiday is correct as it is all encompassing.

Unless those holidays were in the southern hemisphere.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by simmonjam1

I disagree with part of your statement. I think a lot of people look at this with blinders on so they only have a Western world view perspective.

Last year at my work we received a ppt that showed slides with write ups showing the various holidays celebrated by different people from early December to early January. There was 28 different holidays listed; some religious, some civic. I was surprised by that amount. So I'd say Winter Holiday is correct as it is all encompassing.

Exactly. Schools should be calling it a winter holiday to emphasize that the school isn't dictating to any one what they will be celebrating during their holidays. Students and students' families can and should refer to the holiday according to their own traditions, but in what way is it sensible for a public school board to give primacy to Christianity by identifying a two week holiday at the beginning of winter as a celebration of a particular religion when they have students from across various faith and cultural traditions. If you want your school to call the holiday, a "Christmas" holiday, then send your kids to a Catholic or Christian school where it is entirely appropriate for the school to address its homogeneous body of students according to their shared tradition in this regard. I honestly don't understand people who can't grasp this and call it a war on christmas. It's not like Christmas is a bloody two week celebration even within Chritianity, it's a one day thing. The rest of the holiday is quite aptly referred to as a winter holiday even if you are Christian.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by firebug

I fail to see what was 'politically correct' nor what was 'BS' in this schools performance.

If anything, there is far more history in celebrating the changing of the seasons at this time of year than anything else.

I fail to see any basis for Christian origins for the following at this time of year:
-Decorated evergreen trees
-flying reindeer
-elves
-turkey
-exchanging gifts
-gathering together with family and loved ones
-school performances

Other than the name, how is this a 'Christian' holiday?

Who cares if it is a Christian Holiday? I want my kids to experience Christmas, not 'Winter Holiday'. I would also like them to learn about the basics, and origins, of Hanukkah, Passover, Easter, Ramadan, etc so they are not idiots when it comes to knowing about the ways other people live their life.

Just because a school mentions a holiday that is based in religion, doesn't make it wrong. Religion is involved in the way many people live their life. You might take a section in social studies about aboriginal customs in Australia, Egyptians and Aztec lifestyles, Russian or Japanese culture. Many of which will talk about religion.

I don't see why they should exclude all aspects of one of the most important holidays of western culture. In fact, rather than cutting off any religious ties or information, they should further expand it to include most major religious holidays.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Who cares if it is a Christian Holiday? I want my kids to experience Christmas, not 'Winter Holiday'. I would also like them to learn about the basics, and origins, of Hanukkah, Passover, Easter, Ramadan, etc so they are not idiots when it comes to knowing about the ways other people live their life.

Just because a school mentions a holiday that is based in religion, doesn't make it wrong. Religion is involved in the way many people live their life. You might take a section in social studies about aboriginal customs in Australia, Egyptians and Aztec lifestyles, Russian or Japanese culture. Many of which will talk about religion.

I don't see why they should exclude all aspects of one of the most important holidays of western culture. In fact, rather than cutting off any religious ties or information, they should further expand it to include most major religious holidays.

So you want them to celebrate Christmas, but learn about other religions? Why is that one so special? Why not celebrate those other religious holidays too? Or take the more reasonable and feasible route and celebrate a general holiday and learn about them all instead of favoring one.

[corporatejay]

I went to a catholic high school in Calgary and honestly, by the time i got to high school we were taught more about "morality" and value, and then in grade 11, world religions than christianity.

Grade 10 was based goodwill and chairty.
Grade 11 was world religions (it was more a seminar based class, one girl was wikkan and the teacher gave her equal time in class to talk about her faith).
Grade 12 was adversity and perseverance and we read job (of course) but also several world war 2 concentration camps.

Frankly, I am happy with the education I received and thought it was well rounded.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by firebug

Let's say you move to Raymond, AB (Go Comets!) where the population is predominantly mormon.

Through a local plebiscite, the voters determine that the High School will now be taken in by the LDS School Board and it will now be a "Joseph Smith-centered Curriculum"

Would you be fine with the situation provided that your kids could opt out of the 30-minute per day 'institute' class? Or would you feel that there would be ideological bleed-through throughout the balance of the curriculum and therefore prefer that a secular schooling option be provided?

Honestly, considering every Mormon person I've ever met or worked with has been a pretty nicer person who is generally very family oriented, generous and compassionate, I'd be perfectly fine with those values bleeding into other classes.

As long as they're sticking to the carriculum and not teaching that Joseph Smith invented gravity, I wouldn't care if my kid in Kindergarten have to sing songs about how awesome spending time with your family is, and how you should give to charity.

And do you honestly believe that in a community like Raymond that those values aren't already well represented in the school, regardless of whether they take religion as a subject? In a school where the vast majority of the staff are likely to be Mormon, you can bet there are definitely some Mormon influences in how the school is run, which is not at all in conflict with following the standard carriculum. As long as they are not teaching religious beliefs in fact based classes (math, science, social etc), then I don't care what they're teaching in what are essentially philosophical classes that I have the option to opt my children out of anyway.

Honeslty angry persecuted athiest parents say their kids are being "Exposed" to religion like it is toxic waste. Are those parents so worried that other people will have that much influence over their children? Are they that scared that their children are being exposed to other beliefs? Why can't they just explain "Hey, those people believe in something that we don't, and you don't have to either."

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Who cares if it is a Christian Holiday? I want my kids to experience Christmas, not 'Winter Holiday'. I would also like them to learn about the basics, and origins, of Hanukkah, Passover, Easter, Ramadan, etc so they are not idiots when it comes to knowing about the ways other people live their life.

Just because a school mentions a holiday that is based in religion, doesn't make it wrong. Religion is involved in the way many people live their life. You might take a section in social studies about aboriginal customs in Australia, Egyptians and Aztec lifestyles, Russian or Japanese culture. Many of which will talk about religion.

I don't see why they should exclude all aspects of one of the most important holidays of western culture. In fact, rather than cutting off any religious ties or information, they should further expand it to include most major religious holidays.

Nobody is saying Christmas is wrong, they just want a better term to include everyone and not leave anyone out. Why is that so hard to understand? No one will be offended if you wish them a Merry Christmas. Similarly, I'm sure you wouldn't be offended if someone wished you a Happy Hanukkah.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

Exactly. Schools should be calling it a winter holiday to emphasize that the school isn't dictating to any one what they will be celebrating during their holidays. Students and students' families can and should refer to the holiday according to their own traditions, but in what way is it sensible for a public school board to give primacy to Christianity by identifying a two week holiday at the beginning of winter as a celebration of a particular religion when they have students from across various faith and cultural traditions. If you want your school to call the holiday, a "Christmas" holiday, then send your kids to a Catholic or Christian school where it is entirely appropriate for the school to address its homogeneous body of students according to their shared tradition in this regard. I honestly don't understand people who can't grasp this and call it a war on christmas. It's not like Christmas is a bloody two week celebration even within Chritianity, it's a one day thing. The rest of the holiday is quite aptly referred to as a winter holiday even if you are Christian.

One of the problems I have with arguments about whether or not to call something a Christmas break, or a Winter Holliday, is that the argument is compeltely semantic, and ultimately irrelevant. Saying we're calling it a Winter Holliday so that we include everyone is about as effective as putting a cartoon character in your facebook page to fight child molesters.

Malls for example say happy hollidays because they don't want to come off as being pro-Christmas and anti everyone else. Well if that's the case where are all the decorations to represent all the other hollidays? And for that matter what do those decorations have to do with Christianity?

At this point Christmas has outgrown it's Christian origins, and I'd argue is now largely a secular holliday, so why can't we call it Christmas?

Why no uproar over Easter? We still have the Easter bunny, and the stores say Happy Easter? Why not "Happy spring holliday"? Probalby because most people realize that Easter has become a secular holliday, and the Easter bunny and chocolate eggs have about as much signifigance to the origin of the holliday that reindeer and a fat dude in a suit do to Christmas.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Burninator

So you want them to celebrate Christmas, but learn about other religions? Why is that one so special? Why not celebrate those other religious holidays too? Or take the more reasonable and feasible route and celebrate a general holiday and learn about them all instead of favoring one.

As I said in my other post, it's probably because at this point Christmas is essentially a secular holliday, and the name is just semantics.

Do you put up a Christmas tree, or do you tell your kids to gather around the "Winter holliday tree"?

[onetwo_threefour]

^^^ Absolutely. Frankly, if I wish you a Merry Christmas, I'm being somewhat fake, if you think that's what really mean. What I really mean is that I hope you have a good holiday with your loved ones some time in the next few weeks, since I don't believe in God and have no reason to celebrate the alleged birth of his Son. I am as likely to say Happy Holidays as Merry Christmas, but why should I presume to know what holiday tradition you celebrate when I give you a greeting? My view is that people should offer the greeting that refelcts his/her cultural or religious tradition and anyone who doesn't like it should get over him/herself. I don't really care whether schools and government offices use Merry Christmas as a greeting since I think the view is pretty widely held that Christmas has become more cultural than religious in this day and age, but I certainly don't object to a school attempting to be sensitive to the reality that many of its students will not relate to Christmas and removing it from the 'program' is quite justifiable in my opinion.

EDIT:

BBS, Not knocking you personally, but I hate the 'it's just semantics' copout. Wars have been fought over less and the meaninglessness of the difference in terminology to you does not necessarily translate to everyone else. Of course it's semantics. I'm a lawyer that deals with contracts all day long and 90% of my job would be dismissed as 'semantics' by a lot of people, but those meanings of words and phrases can have huge impacts on people's lives. The fact is that the efforts of a school board/administration to 'appear' culturally sensitive are relevant even if you see the distinction as meaningless. It says something about what our public system is supposed to be even if we still have a way to go to get there. As I said, I am with you in that I don't care about the terminology personally, but I don't object to the efforts to be inclusive as per your post below.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

^^^ Absolutely. Frankly, if I wish you a Merry Christmas, I'm being somewhat fake, if you think that's what really mean. What I really mean is that I hope you have a good holiday with your loved ones some time in the next few weeks, since I don't believe in God and have no reason to celebrate the alleged birth of his Son. I am as likely to say Happy Holidays as Merry Christmas, but why should I presume to know what holiday tradition you celebrate when I give you a greeting? My view is that people should offer the greeting that refelcts his/her cultural or religious tradition and anyone who doesn't like it should get over him/herself. I don't really care whether schools and government offices use Merry Christmas as a greeting since I think the view is pretty widely held that Christmas has become more cultural than religious in this day and age, but I certainly don't object to a school attempting to be sensitive to the reality that many of its students will not relate to Christmas and removing it from the 'program' is quite justifiable in my opinion.

I agree with you 100%.
Why? Because that's a perfectly reasonable attitude.
I say Merry Christmas, but I don't care if stores and schools call it winter hollidays. What I think is stupid is people who get all up in arms and offended either way, be it the anti-Christmas (in name only) or the "It's a war on Christmas" type.
Honestly more people need to lighten up and just enjoy themselves. Not everyone is trying to shove everything down your throat, they're just going about their own lives.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

One of the problems I have with arguments about whether or not to call something a Christmas break, or a Winter Holliday, is that the argument is compeltely semantic, and ultimately irrelevant. Saying we're calling it a Winter Holliday so that we include everyone is about as effective as putting a cartoon character in your facebook page to fight child molesters.

Malls for example say happy hollidays because they don't want to come off as being pro-Christmas and anti everyone else. Well if that's the case where are all the decorations to represent all the other hollidays? And for that matter what do those decorations have to do with Christianity?

At this point Christmas has outgrown it's Christian origins, and I'd argue is now largely a secular holliday, so why can't we call it Christmas?

Why no uproar over Easter? We still have the Easter bunny, and the stores say Happy Easter? Why not "Happy spring holliday"? Probalby because most people realize that Easter has become a secular holliday, and the Easter bunny and chocolate eggs have about as much signifigance to the origin of the holliday that reindeer and a fat dude in a suit do to Christmas.

Ok, I agree with you the Christmas can be pretty much used interchangeably with Winter Holidays since the term itself has pretty much evolved beyond it's Christian roots. But if you're going that route, Christians who whine about Christmas being too commercialized need to suck it up and accept the fact that commericalism is now a pretty big part of the overall Christmas tradition as well.