4 in 10 Americans Still Hold Creationist Views

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

With all we know today about the earth and how it functions I am blown away that anyone could think the world is only 10,000 years old.

From the mouths of babes . . . . .

That's really the essence of it.

It's one thing to have "faith" in something as nebulous and unprovable - either way - as God but quite another to think dinosaurs existed only 10,000 years ago.

It calls into question the ability to reason rationally.

People laugh at a fundamental believer like Sarah Palin but a demonstratedly sharp guy like Bobby Jindal actually has the same beliefs as she does.

I don't get that.

Here's an astronomer suing a university for denying him a job because he had written about his fundamentalist beliefs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/us...ronomer&st=cse

The interesting paragraph in there though might be this:

With his faith, Dr. Gaskell, who now works at the University of Texas but has accepted a job in Chile, does embrace views that most of his peers find indefensible. In a 1998 survey, 7.5 percent of physicists and astronomers in the National Academy of Sciences said they believed in God — and many of the believers would still concede that science explains the universe better than a reading of Genesis.

Does that mean that 92.5% of scientists do not believe in God?

Cowperson

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Sometimes I think Cheese was diddled by a priest.

Now now MMF...that was uncalled for.
The truth be known...I studied what I was preaching...and found out it was a blatant lie.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

I always get a kick out of Cheesy. I'm more of the agnostic/athiest leanings myself, so I'm not insulted by his anti-religion salvos. I do get annoyed when he makes posts on religion because I don't find any original debate or logic in them. It's akin to me posting quantum physics posts every week or 2 trying to freeload off Stephen Hawking's knowledge even though I don't really know much about the subject or have anything intelligible to add.

I suggest you remain out of these discussions because it appears you have nothing to add besides inflammatory posts.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Does that mean that 92.5% of scientists do not believe in God?

Sounds about right. And it's probably close to 99.9% of them not believing whats in the bible or Koran.

[transplant99]

It constantly amazes me why anyone else cares what anyone else believes unless it means direct harm to them. Factions of any religion are a problem, but never represent the actual teachings of said religion, instead it is somebody else making a meaning out of it to suit their own purpose.

I am far from anything close to "religious" but I certainly respect those that are and whatever meaning they get out of it that enhances their own lives, I say bravo.

As for the OP...i find that figure hard to believe if it applies to the 10,000 year rule. I am in the bible belt and among a lot of devout baptists and I know of none that believe that nonsense. Do most believe that a god had something to do with creation? Absolutely, but they also AFAIK understand that evolution is how we got to where we are today.

I love my religious friends, and my atheistic friends and all my friends who believe whatever they believe. Its their life to live afterall.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Finny61

I quite like reading Karen Armstrong's books, she had pointed out in one of her books that actual literal belief in the Bible never surfaced until the nineteenth century, prior to that the Bible was purely allegorical and symbolic in its use of stories in the Old Testament ie: the creationist view. Some still uphold the old belief, and obviously 4 out of 10 on average don't.

Karen Armstrong is wrong. Or at least her framing of this point is very poor. What happened was not that people suddenly started to change their mind about the Scriptures. Rather, their minds changed with regard to methods for measuring truth, which became much more scientifically oriented. With this change came an implicit change in exactly what people meant by a "literal" belief in the Bible. Make no mistake: virtually every Jew or Christian prior to the 14th cent. or so believed that the creation accounts (which they harmonized into one creation account), the story of Noah's Ark, the Tower f Babel, the Exodus, the parting of the Red Sea, the "siege" of Jericho, the conquest and every other part of the biblical narrative were literally true. While medieval biblical interpretation was a complex matter that contained many layers of meaning for these and every story from the Bible, people were still wholly convinced that they were not merely allegories or symbols, but that they actually happened.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by peter12

God is dead and we have slain him.

Cool, how many XP do we get for that?

[Tinordi]

It constantly amazes me why anyone else cares what anyone else believes unless it means direct harm to them.

What about indirect harm? What about the corrosion of civil society, perpetuating stigma's and prejudice, inhibiting freedom. To say that ardently religious groups don't negatively impact me all the time is wrong.

Less religion the better for everyone. Allowing it to fester will negatively impact me and humanity for some time.

[something]

The Cornell Evolution Project:

Just for clarification for those who may not know: Deism is the belief that God exists, but does not interfere with the world or impact it in any way. This is a scientifically compatible view.

http://www.americanscientist.org/iss...int/issue.aspx

Perhaps the most revealing question in the poll asked the respondent to choose the letter that most closely represented where her views belonged on a ternary diagram. The great majority of the evolutionists polled (78 percent) chose A, billing themselves as pure naturalists. Only two out of 149 described themselves as full theists (F), two as more theist than naturalist (D) and three as theistic naturalists (B). Taken together, the advocacy of any degree of theism is the lowest percentage measured in any poll of biologists' beliefs so far (4.7 percent).

http://www.americanscientist.org/inc...FYxSVjx4D1zg==

[bradster57]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

What about indirect harm? What about the corrosion of civil society, perpetuating stigma's and prejudice, inhibiting freedom. To say that ardently religious groups don't negatively impact me all the time is wrong.

Less religion the better for everyone. Allowing it to fester will negatively impact me and humanity for some time.

How do other peoples religions inhibit your personal freedom? Nations built upon Christian values are the most free nations in the world (with the exception of Japan and Israel.)

[something]

Originally Posted by peter12

God is dead and we have slain him.

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!" -- As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? -- Thus they yelled and laughed.

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him -- you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us -- for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."
Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars -- and yet they have done it themselves.

It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

What about indirect harm? What about the corrosion of civil society, perpetuating stigma's and prejudice, inhibiting freedom...

I'm curious. What do you mean by "freedom"? Is unqualified freedom really a noble goal? Is it primary? Is it desirable?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

I hold the view that to not believe in evolution, in general, is to be somewhat of an idiot. The evidence is too overwhelming for us not to be persuaded by Darwin's theory. However, I understand the trepidation of many when confronted with the theory. When presented with the rich complexity of humanity and the dark reductionism of what is now "science," I have to say that Darwinism doesn't explain to me the "finish carpentry" of human life. Thus, I remain somewhat of an agnostic, although in a contemporary way, an atheist. The existence of God depends entirely upon the divine's ability to inspire action and reveal truth to humanity. That capacity is dead. God is dead and we have slain him.

Originally Posted by peter12

Polls like this just convince me that most of our academics and intellectuals have brains full of putty and mashed potatoes.

Irony.

[photon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

It constantly amazes me why anyone else cares what anyone else believes unless it means direct harm to them.

Why does anyone care if someone else is a Oilers or a Vancouver fan? It matters far less than someone's political or religious inclination, but someone's favorite team generates huge amounts of emotion and angst and discussion.

The answer is because we're social animals, so it does matter. Should it matter? Probably not, but it does none-the-less.

And in the case of creationism, it does matter more because it does mean direct harm to others, because creationists have waged a consistent war to remove evolution from the science classroom and either replace it with religion, or if they can't remove it to at least have religion taught along side it.

Originally Posted by transplant99

Factions of any religion are a problem, but never represent the actual teachings of said religion, instead it is somebody else making a meaning out of it to suit their own purpose.

Are you trying to claim that a 6,000 year old earth is NOT the actual teaching of a religion? You are seriously incorrect. There are very large Christian denominations who teach this as a core of their faith.

Originally Posted by transplant99

As for the OP...i find that figure hard to believe if it applies to the 10,000 year rule. I am in the bible belt and among a lot of devout baptists and I know of none that believe that nonsense. Do most believe that a god had something to do with creation? Absolutely, but they also AFAIK understand that evolution is how we got to where we are today.

And I live in Alberta, and every church I ever attended not only taught a 6,000 year old earth, it was in their statements of faith that you had to agree to to become a full member of the church.

Just because no one you know believes it doesn't mean no one does. There are a significant # of people who do and they are organized and continue to try and change the education system (among other things) to reflect their beliefs. There are large Christian post-secondary institutions where you cannot teach or attend unless you agree that evolution is false and the earth is 6,000 years old.

[stampsx2]

Actually the belief in nothing and that when you die everything is black and gone is believed by a minority.

Do the research yourself.

Here's one from wikipedia:

Irreligiosity (atheism, agnosticism) is highest in Canada and the US (Canada: 16% USA: 15%), and accounts for roughly 10% of North American population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_America

and if you think wikipedia is biased then honestly, anything written by a human being is.

Actually, a belief that there is no deity is also a belief. Nobody has ever proved that there isn't. Nor will anyone ever be able to.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Are you trying to claim that a 6,000 year old earth is NOT the actual teaching of a religion? You are seriously incorrect. There are very large Christian denominations who teach this as a core of their faith.



.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I grew up going to church every Sunday and I had never heard of a 6000 year old Earth until I saw it in this forum last year.

This is why I asked the question I did earlier. Does the study assume this to be the belief of all who hold creationist views? If so, it's flawed in a big, big way.

[stampsx2]

I have creationist views but I also believe in the Big Bang theory. The world is not 6000 year's old but people have only been somewhat intelligent for only 6000 years.

The first farms and real tools only started about 10 thousand years ago.

From wikipedia:
Agriculture was developed at least 10,000 years ago.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

[something]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Actually the belief in nothing and that when you die everything is black and gone is believed by a minority.

Do the research yourself.

Here's one from wikipedia:

Irreligiosity (atheism, agnosticism) is highest in Canada and the US (Canada: 16% USA: 15%), and accounts for roughly 10% of North American population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_America

and if you think wikipedia is biased then honestly, anything written by a human being is.

Actually, a belief that there is no deity is also a belief. Nobody has ever proved that there isn't. Nor will anyone ever be able to.

You're missing Naturalism/Deism/thepeoplewhoareoccupiedwithworldlyaffairs-ism camps of thought.

Atheism and Agnosticism is not readily explorable by most people since there are virtually no formal institutions representing them. So many people who would be "non-believers" classify themselves variably and often inaccurately.

(Though to be fair, Deists believe in God, they just don't account for God. Furthermore, their God is an engima, and they don't try to reconcile this - "God could be anything, but it doesn't matter anyways since we define our existence separately from any divine presence" would be there assertion)

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Actually the belief in nothing and that when you die everything is black and gone is believed by a minority.

Do the research yourself.

Here's one from wikipedia:

Irreligiosity (atheism, agnosticism) is highest in Canada and the US (Canada: 16% USA: 15%), and accounts for roughly 10% of North American population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_America

and if you think wikipedia is biased then honestly, anything written by a human being is.

Actually, a belief that there is no deity is also a belief. Nobody has ever proved that there isn't. Nor will anyone ever be able to.

Among North America. Look at Europe where atheism is becoming the dominant point of view.

Atheism is only a belief insofar as every fact is a belief. Does the Earth actually exist or does it exist just in your mind? Obviously you can't remove yourself from your perspective to say definitely "the earth exists", therefore you can't prove it exists. Saying atheism is a belief is the equivalent, because it is beyond scientific capabilities to find a God. But it's not a worthwhile distinction. The burden of proof is on the believers.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I grew up going to church every Sunday and I had never heard of a 6000 year old Earth until I saw it in this forum last year.

Sure, but why do you think your church experience is representative of the thousands of Christian denominations?

My experience was the opposite, I didn't know there were churches that DIDN'T believe the earth was 6,000 years old until I was in my 20's at least. I thought everyone who accepted evolution and an old earth were non-Christians.

Seventh-Day Adventist Church has 61,000 churches and 16 million members and are young earth creationists for example.

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

This is why I asked the question I did earlier. Does the study assume this to be the belief of all who hold creationist views? If so, it's flawed in a big, big way.

Of course. Here's the questions:



http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/Fo...eationism.aspx