2010/2011 Toronto Raptors thread

[octothorp]

Yeah, that was epic. I mean, it was brutal that they got into the situation, mostly because of turnovers, which were on Bayless and Bargnani more than anyone else. But Triano did a good job to find a lineup that worked hard and really raised the intensity: Bargnani, Johnson, Kleiza, Wright, and Barbosa; and then swapping out Wright for Bayless at just the right time to put them over the top.

I'm shocked that 23 is a career high for Wallace. I would have thought that even as a defensive specialist, playing with those great Pistons teams he must have had a 30 pointer in there somewhere. Apparently not.

[secol]

it's tough to get over 30 when you have rasheed, prince, hamilton, billups dominating offensive series

[OzSome]

Well, the Raptors beat the Nets tonight. I only seen the last few minutes of the game and I actually like that Barbosa 3 pointer. I like because instead of Bargnani forcing the shot (which he does all the time) he passed the ball to an open Barbosa on a 3 point line.

I haven't been watching the Raptors' game much but I haven't seen Peja play yet. Is he injured or something.

[octothorp]

Yeah, I think early in the season it seemed like the team would stop passing to Bargs if he passed off, so he'd feel like he'd need to do something with every touch he got. Now that they're making a point of going to him throughout the game, he's becoming a much better decision-maker about picking his spots.

Peja has been out for about 10 games with a swollen knee. He's been day-to-day for the whole time, so who knows how long it'll really be.

[secol]

and he's actually rebounded more than his height in feet

[octothorp]

Awesome game by the Raptors tonight, beating the Mavs in Dallas. The Mavs were without Dirk, but Toronto was without Bargnani, Calderon, Weems, Evans, Stojakovic; Kleiza got ejected in the third and Bayless left the game early in the fourth with an ankle injury; Johnson and Barbosa were both playing hurt. That basically left Dorsey, Davis, DeRozan, and Wright as the only healthy players down the stretch.

[Beerfest]

Just got this in a text from TSN.

"The Toronto Raptors and Peja Stojakovic agree to buyout."

[Cheese]

ESPN is reporting that Dallas is sending seldom used centre Alexis Ajinca and a 2013 second round draft pick to the Raptors. In exchange, the Mavericks will receive the rights to Georgios Printezis, who plays in Spain and was a 2007 second-round pick.

Ajinca, 22, averaged 2.9 points, 1.7 rebounds and 7.5 minutes in 10 games for the Mavericks. The 7-foot-2 center was selected No. 20 overall by Charlotte in the first round of the 2008 draft.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Ajinca, 22, averaged 2.9 points, 1.7 rebounds and 7.5 minutes in 10 games for the Mavericks. The 7-foot-2 center was selected No. 20 overall by Charlotte in the first round of the 2008 draft.

That would make him by far the best center the Raptors have wouldn't it?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by moon

That would make him by far the best center the Raptors have wouldn't it?

Defensively that's probably not much of an exaggeration; probably a better shot-blocker than anybody on the team right now, but fouls way too much. He can also be backed under the basket by stronger players. Offensively he's got nice footwork and a decent mid-range touch, but he's not yet the low post player that the Raptors desperately need.

He'll be the eighth guy to play center for the Raps this year. So far it's been:
Bargnani - good NBA center body but doesn't really know how to use it. Excellent when he's aggressive offensively, but absolutely comatose on defense.
Evans - incredible hustle but offensively inept and really too short to guard centers.
Dorsey - see Evans, but with more offense.
Johnson - fouls like crazy when trying to guard Cs.
Alibi - frame is too light right now to play with NBA Cs. Gets backed down easily.
Davis - plays inside well, is a great shot-blocker, but can't finish in traffic and can't make his free-throws.
Andersen - solid enough defensively, but primarily just a jump-shooter on offense.
Ajinca - we'll see what he brings, but it's unlikely to be the full package, at least at this point in his career.

[octothorp]

On another Raptors-related note, TSN published this piece with a rather passionate and one-sided argument that now that Carter has 20,000 career points, he deserves to be in the HoF.

http://tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=350294

Thoughts?
Here's my take: Almost everyone in the HoF has a championship, and amongst those that don't have championships, almost all of them have been at least to the finals. In terms of players who have no finals appearances and are in the HoF, there are very few. Dominique Wilkins is one. He's an interesting comparison for Carter, because they were both human highlight films and slam-dunk champions, extremely popular players and multiple-time all-stars. Wilkins is probably the best comparison for those wanting to see Carter in the HoF.
However, Wilkins also has nearly 25 PPG over his career and 26,668 points, good for 11th all-time. He's one of six players to average 25ppg for 10 straight seasons. Carter may move up the scoring list into the top 20, but he's unlikely to get close to Wilkins, and he has only three seasons total where he scored 25ppg or better. He also never made Toronto (or any of his other teams) as powerful as Atlanta was during Wilkins' prime. He also never won a scoring title.
So where does that leave Carter? I think he's on the outside looking in right now. I also think that he's hurt by the fact that there's no fan-base that passionately wants to see him in the HoF, so who's going to campaign for him?

[D to the iddy]

Originally Posted by octothorp

On another Raptors-related note, TSN published this piece with a rather passionate and one-sided argument that now that Carter has 20,000 career points, he deserves to be in the HoF.

http://tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=350294

Thoughts?
Here's my take: Almost everyone in the HoF has a championship, and amongst those that don't have championships, almost all of them have been at least to the finals. In terms of players who have no finals appearances and are in the HoF, there are very few. Dominique Wilkins is one. He's an interesting comparison for Carter, because they were both human highlight films and slam-dunk champions, extremely popular players and multiple-time all-stars. Wilkins is probably the best comparison for those wanting to see Carter in the HoF.
However, Wilkins also has nearly 25 PPG over his career and 26,668 points, good for 11th all-time. He's one of six players to average 25ppg for 10 straight seasons. Carter may move up the scoring list into the top 20, but he's unlikely to get close to Wilkins, and he has only three seasons total where he scored 25ppg or better. He also never made Toronto (or any of his other teams) as powerful as Atlanta was during Wilkins' prime. He also never won a scoring title.
So where does that leave Carter? I think he's on the outside looking in right now. I also think that he's hurt by the fact that there's no fan-base that passionately wants to see him in the HoF, so who's going to campaign for him?

I have to say no against Vince Carter in the HOF. My personal opinion is that he hasn't done anything HOF worthy in his career (slam dunk championship's don't count). I realize that he brought the Raptors within one shot of the finals but nothing else sticks out in mind. Getting points is only one part of being a HOF basketball player.

When I read the beginning of your post, the person who immediately came to mind was Steve Nash. No championships, No finals appearances... but in my opinion HOF worthy. 2-time MVP and consistently made his teammates better players. Nash and Carter are completely different players though. Looking at points alone for a player does not make them HOF material.

[flames_1987]

I know this has been talked about at nausea but I still can't get over how good Vince Carter was during some of those years as a Raptor. Youtube has only helped prolong my nostalgia with some of his highlights his first few years in the NBA, his Slam Dunk championship, and the extraordinary numbers he put up going toe for toe against Iverson in that 7 game series. Celebrities were coming to Toronto to see this guy play, the Raptors were playing on prime time on the big US Networks and he couldn't escape those Jordan comparisons.

Injuries obviously played a factor in his athletic skill set but he's never had the same attitude or persona on the court that he did in those years as a Raptor. The scary thing about how talented and what his career could've been is the numbers he's still managed to put up solid numbers without the drive or work ethic he once had.

A lot of times I get carried away playing the "what if" game with sports, but I can't help it with Carter because their are just so many. If he had a better support group around him (not on the team but in his life), if the Raptors had managed that team a little better coming off that playoff run to game 7 vs Philly, if those injuries never happened, if he hit that shot falling away against the 76ers. No doubt in my mind he would've gone down as one of the most famous and celebrated athletes in Canada of all time.

[killer_carlson]

I think there is the rub - he "could have", but didn't.

there are lots of atheletes that "could have" been something, but didn't have the heart, or injuries took them out, or coaching or whatever. That's what makes the other ones truely remarkable.

Back to the Raptors though - bargniani is such an enigma. The guy can score, there is no doubt about that, but has no interest in doing anything else out there.

[moon]

I think there was someone (perhaps more than one) willing to defend Coangelo on here in the past so I will ask this how does this guy still have a job as a GM?

The Raptors have 0 players that would start for a contender, few that would even make the 10 man rotation and 0 guys with potential other than being a 4/5th best player on the team.

[Sylvanfan]

It's as if the Raptors directive is to be so bad the people in Toronto will think the Leafs are relatively good in comparison.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by moon

I think there was someone (perhaps more than one) willing to defend Coangelo on here in the past so I will ask this how does this guy still have a job as a GM?

The Raptors have 0 players that would start for a contender, few that would even make the 10 man rotation and 0 guys with potential other than being a 4/5th best player on the team.

I defended him and I'll still defend him. Firstly, getting spoiled NBA players to play for the city through a FA signing is difficult. That's a given and if anything, that's where Colangelo has failed. He's left with signing and trading for many Euro's in hopes they'll stay out of loyalty. Where Colangelo succeeds is in trades - off the top without much thought, I don't believe he's lost badly in any trade. He's also made many moves to get that guy to complement Bosh, but things just simply didn't work out. Good decisions with bad results. This off-season was a disaster though, not his fault though, with trades falling though. It's just the nature of the league though, and quite simply, this year I'm sure it's more of a decision to sit back, get a high draft pick, wait until the new CBA is signed (with a cap), sit back and make some good signings when the teams over the new Cap will be in panic mode making deals to rid themselves of salary. Colangelo never stays still with a mediocre roster, so it's quite telling that he hasn't done anything yet during the season - it's a wait and see approach. Firing him doesn't help either as I don't think there's a better guy out there.

[moon]

Originally Posted by fleury

I defended him and I'll still defend him. Firstly, getting spoiled NBA players to play for the city through a FA signing is difficult. That's a given and if anything, that's where Colangelo has failed. He's left with signing and trading for many Euro's in hopes they'll stay out of loyalty. Where Colangelo succeeds is in trades - off the top without much thought, I don't believe he's lost badly in any trade. He's also made many moves to get that guy to complement Bosh, but things just simply didn't work out. Good decisions with bad results. This off-season was a disaster though, not his fault though, with trades falling though. It's just the nature of the league though, and quite simply, this year I'm sure it's more of a decision to sit back, get a high draft pick, wait until the new CBA is signed (with a cap), sit back and make some good signings when the teams over the new Cap will be in panic mode making deals to rid themselves of salary. Colangelo never stays still with a mediocre roster, so it's quite telling that he hasn't done anything yet during the season - it's a wait and see approach. Firing him doesn't help either as I don't think there's a better guy out there.

The TO excuse is weak. If the team was any good and the franchise showed any signs of moving forward guys would come here.

He has consistently built a butter soft team with streaky jumps shooters that was bound to fail.

Which moves did he make to get a guy to compliment Bosh?

I guess he didn't lose badly in any deal but he didn't make any good deals either. He has failed to draft anyone of consequence. FA signing have been bad to awful. The team has got worse since he has been here.

As far as there being nobody better, what has Coangelo done to prove he is any good? He got an executive of the year award he didn't deserve because Nash played out of his mind and then proceeded to wreck any chance the Suns had a a championship with dumb, dumb moves.

I am not going to say that anyone would be better than Coangelo, because Isiah and Babcock are still out there, but there aren't many that could do a worse job at building a team than he has.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by moon

The TO excuse is weak. If the team was any good and the franchise showed any signs of moving forward guys would come here.

He has consistently built a butter soft team with streaky jumps shooters that was bound to fail.

Which moves did he make to get a guy to compliment Bosh?

I guess he didn't lose badly in any deal but he didn't make any good deals either. He has failed to draft anyone of consequence. FA signing have been bad to awful. The team has got worse since he has been here.

As far as there being nobody better, what has Coangelo done to prove he is any good? He got an executive of the year award he didn't deserve because Nash played out of his mind and then proceeded to wreck any chance the Suns had a a championship with dumb, dumb moves.

I am not going to say that anyone would be better than Coangelo, because Isiah and Babcock are still out there, but there aren't many that could do a worse job at building a team than he has.

As much as Nash played his heart out, Collangelo did an amazing job at bringing in talent to Phoenix. Joe Johnson, Amare, Nash are all stars now. What dumb moves did BC make for the Suns to never have a chance at a Championship? Pleeasseee tell me?

[moon]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

As much as Nash played his heart out, Collangelo did an amazing job at bringing in talent to Phoenix. Joe Johnson, Amare, Nash are all stars now. What dumb moves did BC make for the Suns to never have a chance at a Championship? Pleeasseee tell me?

No need for me to tell you when Bill Simmons did a masterful job himself in his book.

1. Trade away the 7th pick (could have been Deng or Iguodala) for a future pick and cash and then paid more for Quentin Richardson than what it would have cost for the player they picked. One year later traded Richardson and Nate Robinson for Kurt Thomas. Two years later traded Thomas and 2 first rounders to Seattle. So they could have had either Deng or Iguodala and instead ended up giving up 3 extra first rounders and spending more money than it would have cost to sign the pick.

2. Terrible offer to Joe Johnson which basically pushed him to Atlanta, despite the fact he was the perfect 2 guard for the team and signed Diaw instead.

3. Traded the 06 1st round pick to (Rondo) to Boston for a 2007 1st and money. Signed Marcus Banks for $24 million.

4. Signed Diaw to a 5 year $45 million deal that meant Diaw/Banks were making as much as it would have cost to keep Joe Johnson.

5. Finally, as if wasting the all the other 1st rounders he had he took the 2007 pick that he got for the Rondo pick and sold it to Portland even though he could have taken Rudy Fernandez (or any other Euro) who would have cost him nothing in terms of cap space.

In summary they went from Deng/Iguodala to a possible Rondo pick to a possible Fernandez pick and got absolutely nothing for it. In fact they ended up dealing 2 other picks as well with Kurt Thomas. They ended up getting rid of Joe Johnson because of money reason and spending just as much money on Boris Diaw and Marcus Banks.

Not having Deng/Iguodala and not having Joe Johnson on the team certainly killed any chance that the Suns had at winning and both situations were not due to luxury tax cheapness from the owner as the subsequent deals from Coangelo cost the team as much or more money.