Most misquoted quotes...

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Kind of going off the original topic but at work we have a "Near Miss report" that has to be filled out anytime you almost have an accident in the name of safety! I've tried to explain it to people but nobody seems to follow my logic:

If you had a near miss, you had an accident. If you nearly missed, you didn't miss at all but almost did. That's an accident, not the avoidance of one. It should be a "Near Accident report".

Nobody gets it.

Not sure if it is intentional or not but you are plagarising the one and only George Carlin. It was in his act years ago.

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Not sure if it is intentional or not but you are plagarising the one and only George Carlin. It was in his act years ago.

Admittedly I had no idea.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Admittedly I had no idea.

Can't remember if it is from an flying bit or things we say wrong bit either way very funn stuff. Although I'm sure he wasn't the first to ever say it and obviously wasn't the last.

[OBCT]

Originally Posted by Mad Mel

The best part about reading all this talk about pronouncing words in "the proper English way" is that the biggest effect on pronunciation is accent, and Canadians mispronounce nearly every word in the English language.

Do they? What group/region/demographic does not mispronounce words?

Going beyond what is considered "proper", I've always wondered which regional English dialect/accent was most intelligible for other English speakers.

I actually recall seeing a PBS program on this topic that (I believe) concluded, very broadly, that Nebraska and Alberta speakers (generally midwest/prairies regions?) had the "least" accented speech patterns which made them the most intelligible, but I can't find any evidence to back that up on a quick Google search.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Yasa

I have to side with Cecil on this one. Bruschetta is not an English word, therefore there is no "English" pronunciation for it. There's simply the Italian way.

The reason why English don't use the French "r" and other such things is due to our accent (or lack thereof.)

As for misquoted phrases; "Houston, we have a problem," is incorrect. The real quote is "Houston, we've had a problem." BAM!

That's stupid.
There is a food that is basically chopped up tomatos on toasted bread.
Just because it is from Italy doesn't mean there isn't an english word for it.
And just because it's spelled the same doesn't mean we have to use the Italian pronunciation of it either.
That's how languages are created, and most of them have borrowed words from other languages and adapted them.
One such example is Bruschetta.
We pronounce it with a "sh" sound and Italians pronounce it with a "k" sound.

So yes, the Italian pronounciation is with a "K", but the vast majority of english speakers pronounce it with a "sh" sound, so that's become the accepted English pronounciation.

[troutman]

Language is a virus.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Espresso/expresso reminded me of bruschetta. I've been to fancy restaurants and had to correct them on it. One of the few times that I ever would correct someone's pronunciation but it just pisses me off so bad.

Bruschetta is not pronounced bru-shetta.

It is bru-sketta.

I'm not Italian. I dont speak Italian. I'm not in Italy. I couldnt possibly care less about Italian pronunciation. How its pronounced in Italy is irrelevant.

In Italian 'ch' is a 'k' sound.

In English 'ch' is an 'sh' sound.

I'm in Canada. We speak English. I will pronounce it Brushetta. Is that incorrect? Yes, in Italy. Everywhere else?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

That's stupid.
There is a food that is basically chopped up tomatos on toasted bread.
Just because it is from Italy doesn't mean there isn't an english word for it.
And just because it's spelled the same doesn't mean we have to use the Italian pronunciation of it either.
That's how languages are created, and most of them have borrowed words from other languages and adapted them.
One such example is Bruschetta.
We pronounce it with a "sh" sound and Italians pronounce it with a "k" sound.

I think you are confusing how it is properly pronounced and a perception of how you should pronounce it.

As has been pointed out there are numerous examples of words that we get wrong and numerous words that we get right or mostly right.

The correct pronunciation of bruschetta is without a doubt bru-sketta. About this there is no debate. As you said, you don't have to use the Italian pronunciation. Just don't pretend you are saying it right when you aren't. In the same way that I don't have to correctly say rendezvous or bordeaux or foie gras or coup d'etat.

Coup d'etat is actually a great example. I'd say about half the people say it koop day-tat and the other half say it koo-day-tah.

Are any of them wrong? I would say yes. That doesn't mean they can't say it that way, once again though just don't pretend that you are pronouncing it the proper way when you arent'

Whether or not people are somehow obligated to pronounce it that way is a different story.

Now maybe someone has claimed otherwise but never once, including in my original post, did I say all people must start pronouncing it correctly. I did say I've corrected people if I go to a fancy restaurant or something but that is justified. If international cuisine is your specialty you damn well better know how to properly pronounce the food you are serving.

I don't necessarily expect the general public to know how to properly pronounce bruschetta.

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm not Italian. I dont speak Italian. I'm not in Italy. I couldnt possibly care less about Italian pronunciation. How its pronounced in Italy is irrelevant.

In Italian 'ch' is a 'k' sound.

In English 'ch' is an 'sh' sound.

I'm in Canada. We speak English. I will pronounce it Brushetta. Is that incorrect? Yes, in Italy. Everywhere else?

Same answer as I gave BBS. In canada we pronounce coup as in rhymes with soup. And we say d'etat as day-tat.

That is not how coup d'etat is pronounced. Same with rendezvous.

The difference isn't whether the pronunciation is right or wrong because it is wrong.

The difference is that people don't know the proper way. And that is fine. No one ever said John Q should know every pronunciation out there. I hear people say foy-grass all the time. That doesn't make it right. And because of our knowledge of french I'd say it isn't really the accepted way to say it as enough people know the right way. Not so for bruschetta. Most people don't know the correct way so a shh sound is accepted. Accepted and correct are 2 totally different things. I'm arguing the latter not the former.

[troutman]

You might find Italians pronounce the same word differently, depending on what part of the country they are from. Who is to say what is the "proper" way?

[Locke]

Cecil is starting to remind me of this guy:



Do you want to recite Dante's Divine Comedy in the original Italian too?

Wheres peter12? He should get in on the game.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by troutman

You might find Italians pronounce the same word differently, depending on what part of the country they are from. Who is to say what is the "proper" way?

You mean like a-bout, a-boot, a-bow-ut, a-ba-oot?

This is a little different I think. That would be akin to arguing that it should be a soft T at the end of about. Or that the b is silent or something.

Also, that opens an entire can of worms.

Basically you are saying none of the rules we have for pronunciations are anything but a suggestion and there is no proper way to say anything. That defeats the purpose of language and leaves us pretty much in anarchy. Could you imagine if no one followed any of the pronunciation rules and just said everything how they want because there is no "proper" way?

No one would be able to communicate because if we don't respect the rules of language it makes language irrelevant.

Troutman the next time you go into the law office or whatever I dare you to start pronouncing things "your" way. And by your way I mean go on and pronounce everything you say absolutely wrong. Put all of the emphasis on the wrong syllables, make silent letters not-silent, make not-silent letters silent. Change all the vowels to their opposite. Say ah as eh and eh as ah. Video tape it and put it on CP. That would be hilarious. You will quickly see there is most certainly a "proper" way.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Cecil, I will say this.
When it comes to one language taking words from another there is no objective right or wrong way of pronouncing something, the "Correct" pronounciation is what most people agree it is, ie, it is subjective.
It can't be correct in that 1+1=2, it's correct in that the majority of people agree that that's how you say something.
So the fact that 90% of english speakers pronounce it with a "sh" means that yeah, that's considered the "correct" english pronounciation, and the fact that 90% of Italians pronounce it with a "K" sound, means that's the "correct" pronouciation in Italian.

So sure, we can all agree on the original Italian pronounciation while still agreeing that the guy who insists that the way 90% of people pronounce it in English, is wrong, kind of sounds like a smug ###### bag.

[Locke]

If you have to pronounce everything the way the people in the native country with the native language do then have fun the next time you go out for Chinese food.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Locke

Cecil is starting to remind me of this guy:



Do you want to recite Dante's Divine Comedy in the original Italian too?

Wheres peter12? He should get in on the game.

I was thinking that myself.

"Ted, pronouncing it Encyclopadia makes you sound like a ######"
"That's ######, not dooshay"

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

You mean like a-bout, a-boot, a-bow-ut, a-ba-oot?

This is a little different I think. That would be akin to arguing that it should be a soft T at the end of about. Or that the b is silent or something.

Also, that opens an entire can of worms.

Basically you are saying none of the rules we have for pronunciations are anything but a suggestion and there is no proper way to say anything. That defeats the purpose of language and leaves us pretty much in anarchy. Could you imagine if no one followed any of the pronunciation rules and just said everything how they want because there is no "proper" way?

No one would be able to communicate because if we don't respect the rules of language it makes language irrelevant.

Yeah, exactly, we need to follow our rules, not Italy's.
That's why most people here say Bruschetta not Brusketta, and why most people here think that unless you're Italian, saying it brusketta sounds pretty pretentious.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

If you had a near miss, you had an accident. If you nearly missed, you didn't miss at all but almost did. That's an accident, not the avoidance of one. It should be a "Near Accident report".

"Near miss" can also describe the proximity of the "miss".

No one cares about preventing a "wide miss" because the variables are such that even if everything happened as the worst case scenario, there still wouldn't be a problem. In a near miss, one person moving 6 inches in the wrong direction could have been enough to cause a serious problem.


Take a hockey example, if you take a shot from the point and it hits the post, that was a near miss. If you take a shot and it goes into the crowd, that was a wide miss. If you can improve your accuracy by 6 inches, the shot that went off the post would be a shot on goal, but the shot into the crowd would still be a shot into the crowd.

[troutman]

Shamponya - not Shampain

http://www.forvo.com/word/champagne/

Bruschetta:

http://www.forvo.com/search/bruschetta/

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Kind of going off the original topic but at work we have a "Near Miss report" that has to be filled out anytime you almost have an accident in the name of safety! I've tried to explain it to people but nobody seems to follow my logic:

If you had a near miss, you had an accident. If you nearly missed, you didn't miss at all but almost did. That's an accident, not the avoidance of one. It should be a "Near Accident report".

Nobody gets it.

I don't think that this is necessarily incorrect, as "near" in this context is functioning more as an adjective, in which the "miss" is what is being modified by a word that clarifies its proximity to something else. It is quite similar to how the same word is used in other expressions, such as "near at hand", in which something is very close within reach, and not just barely out of reach.

[yads]

What you're missing Cecil is that anglicizing of words is perfectly valid in the English language. I don't get bent out of shape when people say borscht with a t on the end even though there is no 't' in Russian. Because that's just how it's pronounced in the English language.

[4X4]

Cecil, quit flipping out about this. You should hear the way italians botch english words.