Liberals spending promises/vote buying may be backfiring big time.

[kermitology]

I don't really think this matters much. I'm sure that Harper or some member of the Conservatives will come up with something that will scare voters in Ontario into once again supporting the Liberals.

If the Conservatives install a leader who is more central in his views they'll win. That's my opinion..

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by transplant99

.

What changes are you referring to?

Changes to welfare, medicare, corporate relations, status of immigrants and children of immigrants, attitudes about war and projecting political influence.

I just happen to prefer the more liberal attitudes towards those things, hence, I could not bring myself to vote for the current Conservative party. Changes to the above mentioned policies would be worse then Liberal money wasting IMO. While money wasting is bad, I don't think it would have the same impact on this country over time as the policies of the new Conservative party.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Changes to welfare, medicare, corporate relations, status of immigrants and children of immigrants, attitudes about war and projecting political influence.

I just happen to prefer the more liberal attitudes towards those things, hence, I could not bring myself to vote for the current Conservative party. Changes to the above mentioned policies would be worse then Liberal money wasting IMO. While money wasting is bad, I don't think it would have the same impact on this country over time as the policies of the new Conservative party.

That's just it. If, after time, you don't like what's going on, you vote the other way the next time. Nice thing about electoral reform is that every vote would count then too. I like the idea of having the government answer to the Greens for their environmental policy, etc.

[transplant99]

Changes to welfare, medicare, corporate relations, status of immigrants and children of immigrants, attitudes about war and projecting political influence.

OK fair enough. Im just curious as to what changes you assume that they will make in these above categories.

Welfare..Couldn't find anything specifically mentioning welfare or welfare reform. It does say this however...

The Conservative Party is committed to a strong and effective health care program, well-funded post-secondary education and an effective safety net so that Canadians will be able to face the challenges of life at the beginning of the 21st century. We will work with the provinces and territories to strengthen the social fabric of Canada to improve the quality of life for all Canadians but especially children, seniors and the disabled.


medicare

Not sure what you are worried about here either. But here is the official platform on it..

51. Health Care
i) The Conservative Party believes all Canadians should have reasonable access to timely, quality health care services, regardless of their ability to pay.

ii) The provinces and territories should have maximum flexibility to ensure the delivery of medically necessary health services within a universal, public health care system. The Conservative Party supports adding a sixth principle to the Canada Health Act to provide stable and transparent federal funding. We will work with the provinces in a co-operative and constructive manner.

iii) Flexibility for the provinces and territories in the implementation of health services should include a balance of public and private delivery options. This approach would ensure that health services remain publicly funded, while services are provided through the most appropriate public or private provider based on quality and cost.

iv) We will work with the provinces and territories in the development of national quality indicators and objectives.

corporate relations.

Again...really no idea what you mean here. There is this in the plan however....

Industrial Development
i) The Conservative Party favours reducing subsidies to for-profit businesses. We believe it will be possible to not only reduce, but eventually to eliminate subsidies to for-profit businesses by focusing on improving overall economic growth through facilitating competition, improving productivity, streamlining regulation and fostering innovation in concert with free and fair trade agreements.

ii) A Conservative Government will work with international organizations and individual nations to reduce protectionist policies to secure free trade agreements. Our goal in negotiations will be to secure agreements that benefit Canadian manufacturers by allowing them to compete and succeed through competition on a level playing field. Where there is injurious harm caused by a trade action, and we have a reasonable chance of winning and/or reversing this action, we will support an industry on a temporary basis until the trade action is resolved.

iii) A Conservative Government would amend the Investment Canada Act to expand the review process to include not only the net benefit to Canada in reference to our industrial, economic and cultural policies, but also a consideration of our national security interests. This would include security of supply, technology transfer and any anti-trust implications.

iv) A Conservative Government will privatize crown corporations that compete directly with comparable services from existing private sector institutions.

status of immigrants and children of immigrants

Whats the concern? You want more? Less? Here's their policy. (too long to post it.)

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/policy...)_immigration/

attitudes about war and projecting political influence.

Hmmm...i have a feeling that this means you didn't support the Iraqi war, and that's fine. Not sure that Harper did either to be honest, but I may have missed it.

I do know that they want to stengthen the pathetically under-funded "military" that Canada now has as well as strengthen the peace keeping forces that so many are proud of. This is actually something that the Liberals say they want as well and hopefully will do something about if re-elected. I dont hold my breath on anything that the proven liars say however.


All the above from the Conservatives website.

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/policy_declaration/

[jimmy11]

Don't look at the Toronto Star poll (EKOS). It says the liberals are poised for a majority!

www.thestar.com
(look halfway down the page)

Man, is that scary/ sad or what?

[Hakan]

The NDP is leading polls in BC. 34-32-32

If only these numbers held up until election time. They wont though.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by jimmy11

Don't look at the Toronto Star poll (EKOS). It says the liberals are poised for a majority!

www.thestar.com
(look halfway down the page)

Man, is that scary/ sad or what?

From the article:

More than half of respondents (56 per cent) said the country "is moving in the right direction," while 36 per cent said it wasn't, and 8 per cent had no opinion.

Graves said this result may be behind the Liberals' improved popularity

"The key thing for this campaign is the direction of the country," he said. "Right now this is actually lifting the Liberal vote. Although many Canadians are disillusioned with the Liberals after a dozen years in office, their relative satisfaction with the direction of the country means that many may be reluctant to rock the boat, so to speak, by ejecting them from office."

I think that is it right there. People don't want to cut their nose off to spite their face. While the media has been very focused on the negatives of the Liberals, there are many positives that are being overlooked.

I did find it interesting that most of the Liberal support according to the article is among young people and women, but that those groups are less likely to show up to vote than those groups who support the Conservatives.

Transplant: Thanks for going through the trouble to get all that information. Obviously the Conservatives, like the Liberals and NDP, will do their best to state things in the most tasteful ways. I'm not calling them liars, but they are politicians so I take it with a grain of salt. Their policies don't make me angry, I just happen to disagree with them. I think some protectionism is needed. I also like the way things are right now with our social systems. Obviously, they are something that will always have to be tweaked, but I don't see the need for the massive change that changing governments would bring. Restructuring is an inevitable part of shifting from a Liberal to a Conservative government (and vice-versa), and I don't think it is necessary right now.

Having said that, maybe a small shake-up is good. A Liberal or Conservative minority that is forced to compromise with each other would be alright. I just have trouble seeing it happen with the current leaders.

[duncan]

I have a hard time believing the Liberals will gain a majority. They will lose ground in Quebec and they will lose ground in Ontario. The only reason the Conservatives didn't gain even more than the 22 seat improvement they made, was that the Harris/Eves days were still fresh. Ontario had experienced similar misrepresentation from the Conservatives, that Canada is receiving from the Fiberals. Actually, lets do a comparison;

1. former leader resigns and is replaced by their finance minister
2. financial scandal arises (kick back to pro sports teams), former finance minister pleads ignorance.
3. government funded investigation into missing funds finds blame lays elsewhere. (shocking)
4. government sneaks bills through parliament, and disbands parliament to block motions.
5. government seen to be wholly centered around the issues of one area (Toronto/Barrie/NorthBay) at the expense of everyone else.
6. just prior to election call, government does 180 turn, and throws money at groups they had ignored/devastated in hopes of buying votes.

Sound similar?

So, the Federal Conservativesmake their platform, and people from Ontario read it different;

1. Healthcare
Flexibility for the provinces and territories in the implementation of health services should include a balance of public and private delivery options. This approach would ensure that health services remain publicly funded, while services are provided through the most appropriate public or private provider based on quality and cost.

= two-tier healthcare, top quality and no waits for the wealthy, with secondary healthcare for the poor. A system that mirrors our current legal aide system, where the best lawyers are cash only, and recent grads or poor court room lawyers handle the legal aide cases.
= privatization, which has had nasty results already in Ontario......see Walkerton

2. Industrialization
First key words- 'Free Trade'. Yes, it has benefitted Ontario in the past (sarcasm).............. the Golden Horseshoe/Southern Ontario is industrial, and was hit hard by the previous free trade agreements. Thousands lost their jobs and homes as factory after factory closed and moved to the States and Mexico.
Second key words- 'Privatization'
A Conservative Government will privatize crown corporations that compete directly with comparable services from existing private sector institutions.
= another time we will see a government contract work to their buddies, under the guise of reduced costs with equal service. Ontario privatized snow removal, and I had a lovely drive to work this morning on an unplowed highway (Privatized work formally done by the MoT cost Ontario an extra $27.4M last year, and the 407 highway saw more toll hikes). Privatized lab work aided in the tragedy in Walkerton. The privatization of Meat inspectors pro-longed the Aylmer meat scandal. The private jail at Penetanguishine cost $5M more to run than its counterpart in Milton, with increased violence and reduced security.

[Clarkey]

Originally Posted by Hakan

The NDP is leading polls in BC. 34-32-32

If only these numbers held up until election time. They wont though.

Just curious, why do you support the NDP? Do you feel the party will improve Canada economically? What is your main criteria when you vote for a party?

[flamingchina]

Originally Posted by duncan

1. Healthcare
Flexibility for the provinces and territories in the implementation of health services should include a balance of public and private delivery options. This approach would ensure that health services remain publicly funded, while services are provided through the most appropriate public or private provider based on quality and cost.

= two-tier healthcare, top quality and no waits for the wealthy, with secondary healthcare for the poor. A system that mirrors our current legal aide system, where the best lawyers are cash only, and recent grads or poor court room lawyers handle the legal aide cases.
= privatization, which has had nasty results already in Ontario......see Walkerton

I'm always amazed at the equivilancy that people do with the health care system, it's always to the states, the any of the other numerous countries with a two tier system (IE all of Europe)
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?...th+care&gwp=13
Quebec has already starting instituting this, as well as Ontario. why can't the rest of us?

Originally Posted by duncan

2. Industrialization
First key words- 'Free Trade'. Yes, it has benefitted Ontario in the past (sarcasm).............. the Golden Horseshoe/Southern Ontario is industrial, and was hit hard by the previous free trade agreements. Thousands lost their jobs and homes as factory after factory closed and moved to the States and Mexico.

Ohh yes, the horrible horrible spector of "free trade"
Well, considering 40% of the Canadian economy is based on exports, about 45% of what we produce and 33% of jobs.
Since 1994 our trade with Mexico and the US has doubled.
http://canadianeconomy.gc.ca/english...1994NAFTA.html

Originally Posted by duncan

Second key words- 'Privatization'
A Conservative Government will privatize crown corporations that compete directly with comparable services from existing private sector institutions.
= another time we will see a government contract work to their buddies, under the guise of reduced costs with equal service. Ontario privatized snow removal, and I had a lovely drive to work this morning on an unplowed highway (Privatized work formally done by the MoT cost Ontario an extra $27.4M last year, and the 407 highway saw more toll hikes). Privatized lab work aided in the tragedy in Walkerton. The privatization of Meat inspectors pro-longed the Aylmer meat scandal. The private jail at Penetanguishine cost $5M more to run than its counterpart in Milton, with increased violence and reduced security.

Have some privitizations goes badly? Yes. Have all? no. Should Canada still own an airline? how about an oil company?
Privitization of Alberta liquor stores went quite well, we have much better service and selection now. The privitization of the Telephone industry has brought increased service as well.

[duncan]

Firstly, I didn't compare two-tier healthcare with any other country, I compared it with Ontario's Legal Aide System. I have had alot of experience with the legal system, and it is an example of 'two-tiered'. The best lawyers, and experienced lawyers go into private practice where they can make money, while fresh lawyers, and lawyers who can't control a court room rely on Legal Aide and 'Public Defender' cases. The poor get secondary representation, while those that can afford it get the $450/hour specialist.
Secondly, yes it has been introduced in Ontario, and it hasn't shortened lines for the average patient. Those that can afford the clinic, get the treatment, those that can't wait. We still face shortages in Doctors, nurses, lab techs, etc. There are more orphaned patients than covered patients. If anyone is mirroring the American system, it is the pro- twotier groups. Wouldn't it be lovely to have that system? The nurse doesn't take your vitals, she takes your insurance info first. Don't have the money/insurance, fine back into the ambulance, we can send you to the public hospital in the next town. A lovely intern will see you there.

Free trade has been great for a few companies. It has also killed thousands of machinist jobs. I live in a small Ontario town (7700 people), and since 1994, the following jobs have disappeared;
Gearco, a metal parts plant closed.....300 jobs (moved to USA)
Champion Machinery, sold to Volvo......downsized from 1000 jobs to 350, with remainder of jobs now in Louisiana
Shaeffer Pen......... closed and opened in Mexico, 350 jobs lost
Lakeport Steel.....closed, 50 jobs
thats more than 1300 jobs just off the top of my head, in a decade

Has privatization gone well? In some areas maybe. Has the service gotten better in flights? Have the prices improved? Has safety increased?
Again, I look at recent history here. Premier Mike Harris privatized Lab work, contracting it out to the lowest bidder. Results, no whistle blower in Walkerton, lab contacted town a week after sample, informed them of poor sample, no notice to Public Health Unit, no advisory. Weeks passed, 7 dead and 2000 affected, Premier blames town employees, but 2 years later another tainted water issue arises near Wallaceburg, where a plant had a leak, and toxic chemicals entered a nearby water table. The private lab didn't test for those chemicals, because they weren't "natural" to the area, and it wasn't "fiscally responsible" to test for everything. They openly admitted that they chose the most common 25 pollutants to test for, since they had to follow a budget.
Harris also contracted out meat inspection, terminating 90% of the trained inspectors, and replacing them with a few short term contract workers. The new inspectors received half of the training, and 10x the coverage area. New inspectors were quickly bullied into 'not costing money', and it was found that a packing plant in Aylmer was processing dead stock. The next governmnet quickly re-hired the inspectors.
Harris privatized road work from the Ministry of Transportation, and the toll collection on the new 407 highway. It also backfired, as costs actually increased, and companies bicker over territory (leaving unplowed roads) and reasonable snow amounts. The 407 has had yearly increases in tolls with no improvements, and the contract is locked in for 25 years.
Harris privatized Central North Correctional Centre, and it has more violence and costs than Maplehurst, the public funded facility, and is now in the process of becoming Publicly operated again, at a loss of millions. He privatized Open custody facilities, such as the one the Taber killer escaped from. The company that received the contract, reduced staffing levels within the first month, and decided that the easiest way to save money, was to fire the experienced staff, and hire younger, inexperienced people at lower wages, while increasing the counts of inmates.
Harris privatized the land registry group, and contracted out their work to MPAC, which closed our local office, and moved services to the nearest city, 1.5 hours away. Now, if you want to search proerty titles, you had better have all of the correct data, because the person you will be dealing with, will not know the area. The same group now does property assessment, and the assessed value (for taxation) of my proerty has increased by 55% in 8 years. No new employment has come to the area and the population hasn't jumped?
He privatized Ontario Hydro, selling it to the British who renamed it Hydro One. The pay rates of the executives tripled, we suffered through 'brown outs', started buying power from the states, and our rates increased.

[Hakan]

The enmax privatization sure worked out well. A year after privatization and the prices doubled. Calgary went from a state-owned monopoly to a private monopoly. Good job Klein. Hopefully you got some kickbacks for that one.

Clarkey, I'll answer your question after I finish writing my paper.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Hakan

The enmax privatization sure worked out well. A year after privatization and the prices doubled. Calgary went from a state-owned monopoly to a private monopoly. Good job Klein. Hopefully you got some kickbacks for that one.

Clarkey, I'll answer your question after I finish writing my paper.

You are a good Liberal!!

Point out one thing, and ignore all the others.

Liquor, telephone, licensing, etc etc. All are much better off. I would suggest that they privatize Canada Post as well.

Give the privatization of electricity some time to be affected by the private ssector. Eventually there will be some competition that will drive prices down...happens in every business anywhere.

There isn't a single business in existance that can't be run more efficiently by private sector companies than by any government agency. Period.

[duncan]

Originally Posted by transplant99

You are a good Liberal!!

Point out one thing, and ignore all the others.

Liquor, telephone, licensing, etc etc. All are much better off. I would suggest that they privatize Canada Post as well.

Give the privatization of electricity some time to be affected by the private ssector. Eventually there will be some competition that will drive prices down...happens in every business anywhere.

There isn't a single business in existance that can't be run more efficiently by private sector companies than by any government agency. Period.

Run more efficiently, or better? I have shown several examples where they weren't more efficient, when attempting to provide the same service. Liquor, more efficient, but like tobacco, will safe guards exist to prevent underage purchasing? Hydro One has been up and running for 5 years.... no drop in prices. Natural Gas is privately run have we seen lower prices? Gas stations are privately run, are their prices under control? Licencing/Land Registry/Property Assessment has seen no improvement in services (actually much worse), and no savings for government, truth be known, an admitted a loss of income. Prison system was an absolute nightmare here, when privatized. Provincial Labs.....contracted labs admitted that they cut service to maintain the budget. Ministry of Transportation road service was privatized, and the contract kept growing and growing, while service kept slipping and slipping. Now roads aren't being cleared because one licencee argues its the others territory.
The grass isn't always greener, and sometimes when it is left to grow wild, it hides alot of weeds.

[transplant99]

That's Ontario...so I really cant speak for them.

In Alberta (though i have no idea what this has to do with the main point of this thread) liquor is better off, (and are you suggesting underage drinking didnt occur when the gov't controlled things? LOL) the whole telephone thing is about a 100 times better off, licensing is actually cheaper than it once was in todays dollars versus yesteryears, private labs are used all the time in health care and very few problems but massive savings for the govt itself.

Yes, its always better that private sector run actual businesses. They have something to lose if its not done properly (everything actually) , the government really doesnt.

[HOZ]

T99 - An article just for you. Thought it hit the right notes for you.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Colum...6/1325566.html


Harper scary, Alberta bad, Alberta rednecks, Alberta's fault, Harper scary....

[duncan]

Originally Posted by HOZ

T99 - An article just for you. Thought it hit the right notes for you.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Colum...6/1325566.html


Harper scary, Alberta bad, Alberta rednecks, Alberta's fault, Harper scary....

What are you smoking? The article doesn't mention Alberta at all, it doesn't even mention the Conservative platform, or Harper's views. It questions the Star's Liberal bias, in the Sun's Conservative bias. Big wow. If it did speak of your points, it would be just like alot of people's "Martin crooked, Ontario bad, Ontario pinkos, Ontario's fault, Martin crooked......"

[duncan]

Originally Posted by transplant99

That's Ontario...so I really cant speak for them.

In Alberta (though i have no idea what this has to do with the main point of this thread) liquor is better off, (and are you suggesting underage drinking didnt occur when the gov't controlled things? LOL) the whole telephone thing is about a 100 times better off, licensing is actually cheaper than it once was in todays dollars versus yesteryears, private labs are used all the time in health care and very few problems but massive savings for the govt itself.

Yes, its always better that private sector run actual businesses. They have something to lose if its not done properly (everything actually) , the government really doesnt.

I started the tangent on privatization, since it was mentioned that there were 3 distinct groups in Canada; pro-Liberal, pro-conservative, and undecided fence sitters. The poster that mentioned it was slammed, and I backed him up. Then I responded why some might question either party, why some may flip from Liberal to Tory in Ontario, and vice-versa. The platform or ideas were used as comparison to Tory promises/ideas/actions here. It spread from there.

Again, if the bottom line is all you worry about, the private sector is usually better, usually (as I again drove on crappy roads, and turned on to a disputed lane). Service does suffer, especially in rural areas, where fiscally, offices don't make sense. People there cry foulf that the world revolves around Ottawa/Ontario. Privatization here made it worse, as the world revolved around larger urban areas, especially Toronto, and LHIN offices, Assessment Offices, Registry Offices, Medical Services.........disappeared fast. I use Ontario, because we made the mistake. When it was happening here, we used Britain for the jails, because they had seen major failures.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Hakan

The enmax privatization sure worked out well. A year after privatization and the prices doubled. Calgary went from a state-owned monopoly to a private monopoly. Good job Klein. Hopefully you got some kickbacks for that one.

Not to let facts spoil a good **** up, but Enmax has never been sold, and remains wholly owned by the City of Calgary.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by duncan

He privatized Ontario Hydro, selling it to the British who renamed it Hydro One. The pay rates of the executives tripled, we suffered through 'brown outs', started buying power from the states, and our rates increased.

I did a lot of consulting with Ontario Power Generation (OPG) during the transition to an open market energy trading system. There's a few things wrong with what you'e just said:

1) Hydro One is in the Distribution and Transmission business. They don't generate power. If there's no power to transmit you get browouts. So the guilty party here was OPG, not Hydro One.

2) The reason why those brownouts were happening was that the government meddled with the free market structure of energy trading, implementing caps on what they could charge consumers, despite the fact that the cost of generation could exceed what was being charged. Exactly what was happening in California during their crisis. So naturally the private sector was spooked and elected not to invest in new generation facilities in Ontario. The result - not enough power to meet demand.

The lack of private sector investment also prevented power from being imported from Manitoba, as no one wanted to pony up for the transmission lines.

3) I love it when people whine about how much executives make, particularly at public sector jobs. The costs of exec pay are miniscule compared to the big picture and gross revenues / profit brought in. The salary is typically far below what your private sector guy makes as there are no options or equity to really hit the big dollars. I think Bronco makes about $150K a year after tax effect, that's really not much for the top executive of an organization. Want to really puke? Read some info circulars of major corporations and you'll see how underpaid some public sector executives make.


For the record, I've been quite disgusted by the Liberals vote buying binge and desperate grasp to stay in power. That said, I-Hate-Harper (hey, a new userid!) and am loathe to go in that direction....