Enriching uranium, sinking a ship and now shelling the south, at what point does this child need a slap ?
Couldn't the south shell a palace or something similar to send a message ?
(Reuters) - North Korean leader Kim Jong-il and his son and successor Jong-un visited the artillery base from where shells were fired at a South Korean island just hours before the attack, South Korean media reported on Thursday.
Maybe it's best if they just attack North Korea and get it over with. A leadership who murders people and then puts blame on the South because they were doing military exercises (an exercise that they were well aware of and happens every year) can't be trusted. why wait for them to strike again?
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North Korea, which said Friday that South Korea and the United States are recklessly pushing the Korean peninsula toward war by scheduling a joint military drill for this weekend.
War because of a drill? how f'cked are these people?
Send in a dozen or so F-22's and take out their anti-aircraft, then carpet bomb their artillery with B-52's and then precision strike the leadership. Yeah they'll get some shots off but not nearly as many if you wait for them to strike.
Most of the hardened artillary sites are loaded, cocked and ready to go. Plus and I'm no artillary man but a good crew can probably launch 3 or 4 volley's a minute.
So lets say that the NK's see any sign of an impending attack, its more then likely that they can get off at least 2 minutes of concentrated fire.
If your talking about 10,000 artillary pieces firing 4 times a minute times 2 minutes your talking 80,000 shells, and we're talking big ones here 170 mm and up, combine that with MLRS that can ripple fire off a dozen 240 mm fin stabilized rockets that are the equivalent of dropping a phone booth sized high explosive on your house, and Seoul would cease to exist from explosions, fire and fragmentation injuries in about 2 minutes.
Even if NK lost the war, there would be some satisfaction that the industrial and civic hub of your main enemy is now a moonscape.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Most of the hardened artillary sites are loaded, cocked and ready to go. Plus and I'm no artillary man but a good crew can probably launch 3 or 4 volley's a minute.
So lets say that the NK's see any sign of an impending attack, its more then likely that they can get off at least 2 minutes of concentrated fire.
If your talking about 10,000 artillary pieces firing 4 times a minute times 2 minutes your talking 80,000 shells, and we're talking big ones here 170 mm and up, combine that with MLRS that can ripple fire off a dozen 240 mm fin stabilized rockets that are the equivalent of dropping a phone booth sized high explosive on your house, and Seoul would cease to exist from explosions, fire and fragmentation injuries in about 2 minutes.
Even if NK lost the war, there would be some satisfaction that the industrial and civic hub of your main enemy is now a moonscape.
Artillery takes man power, for every invisible bomb that surgically strikes these guys 10 will run like hell and give up. Alot aimed doesn't mean a lot will be fired.
Artillery takes man power, for every invisible bomb that surgically strikes these guys 10 will run like hell and give up. Alot aimed doesn't mean a lot will be fired.
NKs army size being the way it is will have no trouble manning these guns. Plus... these soldiers are heavily indoctrinated... I really doubt they would run and give up.
Remember a few years back when those two NK subs were about to be captured? Their entire crew committed suicide rather than be captured... this doesn't sound like a demoralized enemy that will give up and run like hell. Not like the Iraqis at all.
Even if NK lost the war, there would be some satisfaction that the industrial and civic hub of your main enemy is now a moonscape.
In a high-level strategic wargame conducted a few years ago, an American general estimated that in a full-scale war scenario between the Koreas, casualties in Seoul could be limited to 100,000. That's still a horrifying number -- the most civilian deaths from any military strike since the atomic bombing of Nagasaki -- but it's "only" about 1% of Seoul's population. That's a huge difference from flattening Seoul into a crater.
However, when the "best case scenario" estimate is 100,000 dead civilians, one can understand why South Korea is extremely hesitant to allow the situation to estimate.
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"My understanding is that we cannot protect Seoul, at least for the first twenty-four hours of a war, and maybe for the first forty-eight." McInerney disputed this, and Mathews asked him to explain.
McInerney: "There's a difference between 'protecting' Seoul and [limiting] the amount of damage Seoul may take."
Mathews: "There are a hundred thousand Americans in Seoul, not to mention ten million South Koreans."
McInerney: "A lot of people are going to die, Jessica. But you still prevail."
Mathews: "I just think we've got to be really careful. We've got to protect Seoul. If your daughter were living in Seoul, I don't think you would feel the U.S. military could protect her in those first twenty-four hours."
McInerney: "No, I do. I believe that we have the capability—whether from pre-emption or response—to minimize the casualties in Seoul."
Mathews: "'Minimize' to roughly what level? A hundred thousand? Two hundred thousand?"
McInerney: "I think a hundred thousand or less."
The full article is here. While it's long at six pages, it's well worth the read.
NKs army size being the way it is will have no trouble manning these guns. Plus... these soldiers are heavily indoctrinated... I really doubt they would run and give up.
Remember a few years back when those two NK subs were about to be captured? Their entire crew committed suicide rather than be captured... this doesn't sound like a demoralized enemy that will give up and run like hell. Not like the Iraqis at all.
Only one I remember is a mini-sub caught in a net with about 7 or 8 people, big difference IMO as they had nowhere to run. when there's a boom-boom-boom coming at you out of nowhere the human spirit says f'ck this...I'm out of here.
I remember watching a video showing emplacements of NK artillary, this is the hardened site stuff, where the gun crews are sheltered under several feel of concrete and the sites are literally ringed stupid with anti aifcraft defenses.
If the first rounds are already loaded, you can still fire three aimed shots or more in the time that a bomb drops from altitude.
While American air power is very much vaunted and deservedly so, its not like all of the B1's B2's and F22 are in theatre. Most of the planes that the American and south koreans have in theatre are the fun of the mill f-15's and f-18's etc. The North Koreans will know they're coming long before they arrived.
There's no way that the NK doesn't get in a first really big body blow when hostilities start.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
In a high-level strategic wargame conducted a few years ago, an American general estimated that in a full-scale war scenario between the Koreas, casualties in Seoul could be limited to 100,000. That's still a horrifying number -- the most civilian deaths from any military strike since the atomic bombing of Nagasaki -- but it's "only" about 1% of Seoul's population. That's a huge difference from flattening Seoul into a crater.
However, when the "best case scenario" estimate is 100,000 dead civilians, one can understand why South Korea is extremely hesitant to allow the situation to estimate.
The full article is here. While it's long at six pages, it's well worth the read.
Interesting, I was always taught that estimates created by war games and scenario testing are usually on the low or high end and ever accurate in terms of causualties and logistical usage.
Who know's, maybe NK's artillary barrage falls apart. Or maybe the South reaction is a little slow on a pre-emptive attack.
All I know is that heavy shelling is devestating to civilians, the romantic scenes in movies of our hero's walking through a barrage are not even close to true. Basically if I drop a 155 shell at center ice at the dome, probably every one ont he first level has been reduced to hamburger, and a great deal of the people on the second level have ne and interesting belly buttons.
And thats not even looking at the resolve of North Korea to take advantage of their chemical stockpile. If I can fire 10,000 of those on the first barrage fused to airburst, I'm bettering I can kill a half million people in the first minute of the war.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
I think Americans escalating things is a VERY big gamble.
You are basically pulling the trigger prematurely. I cannot even imagine the amount of negative sanctions that would be placed on the US if they openly attacked a country. China, Russia etc. would all find reason not to support American economic standards.
NK while crazy, isnt dumb. They know that if they start ####, they will almost certainly be exterminated. As a proud people i don't seem them doing this.
IMO China needs to step in and both sides need to demilitarize. Kim Jong Il need to be killed or sent away to siberia or something...
I think Americans escalating things is a VERY big gamble.
You are basically pulling the trigger prematurely. I cannot even imagine the amount of negative sanctions that would be placed on the US if they openly attacked a country. China, Russia etc. would all find reason not to support American economic standards.
NK while crazy, isnt dumb. They know that if they start ####, they will almost certainly be exterminated. As a proud people i don't seem them doing this.
IMO China needs to step in and both sides need to demilitarize. Kim Jong Il need to be killed or sent away to siberia or something...
You know it, I know it. everybody knows it, but I think I'm not alone if a guy who was proclaimed a god from childhood knows it?
I think Americans escalating things is a VERY big gamble.
The American's are always going to go to the aid of a ally. Its a big gamble, but what isn't
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT
You are basically pulling the trigger prematurely. I cannot even imagine the amount of negative sanctions that would be placed on the US if they openly attacked a country. China, Russia etc. would all find reason not to support American economic standards.
The problem with placing sanctions on the U.S., is that they're still constantly running a trade deficit with most countries, so while we talk about the American's going broke if you put the U.S. in a position where they start heavily reducing trade with countries like China or Russia and they decide to chop that trade or put heavy tariffs on trade coming into the U.S. then China and Russia's income that comes from this trade goes away.
So fine, sanction us, attack our econmy, but on the way down your going to suffer grieviously as well.
If the American's decide to retailiate through trade then China loses a lot of its position of strenght and both countries get hurt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerSVT
NK while crazy, isnt dumb. They know that if they start ####, they will almost certainly be exterminated. As a proud people i don't seem them doing this.
Maybe, but if the U.S. tells the NK's to blow it out their a$$ and hammers them with more sanctions meaning that the NK usual means of negotation through agitation fails then either Kim will do something truly desparate, or the NK military takes over and those guys are not exactly rational.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerSVT
IMO China needs to step in and both sides need to demilitarize. Kim Jong Il need to be killed or sent away to siberia or something...
thats never going to ever happen. If I'm SK why the heck would I demilitarize if China lets say took over NK? China can demand that the Koreas disarm, NK would tell them to piss off, and if China decided to militarily push the Kims out, and the Kims backed into a corner would probably either fight to the death, or lob a couple of nukes into China. The SK would see a armed Chinese military in NK and they would never agree and the American's would never agree to sit disarmed in front of the dragons.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
