Why the Bible is wrong, according to the Bible

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Yes correct, 3 year olds cant make decisions other than "I must eat that candy now"!! Others make those decisions for them, hence the impressions that are placed on that childs life. Once they are able to make decisions most parents still prefer to over rule and manage their childrens lives, for good or bad. Your right about the fact that later in life they can change or make decisions on their own, but in a lot of cases there are huge scars left to deal with and emotional baggage that weighs them down.

here's some of that baggage...

http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm
http://new.exchristian.net/

excerpt from one...

Brought up in a Baptist heavily religious home in the UK....
Trouble is when you’re brought up in such a domineering environment there is bound to be some deep seated effect and eventually when I reached 20 I returned home (having left at 16) without a job or money and dreading living with my mother. In truth I was very vulnerable and I began to crack under the inevitable pressure to give my life to god. So I did – what a mistake – I went along and joined the merry brigade with all the hands in the air and speaking in tongues – believing everything I was brainwashed with and became a shadow of myself.

After a year or so my entire instinct was to run a mile but now I’m hooked in and worried about what the church will think but more importantly “what god will think of me”.

I had developed the fear – you know the one - fear of disapproval from god, fear of hell, fear of the devil prowling around like a lion – fear of blasphemy – fear of sex before marriage – literally anything and everything. I hated my life but felt like such a coward daring not to stand up to any of them. I became so disillusioned as my only real prayer was to stop feeling so worthless and hope to be more confident in myself – no change at all. I got married and when my wife told me she was expecting our first child that just did it for me.

I said to myself no way was any child of mine going to suffer the misery I did – no way on earth am I going to bring them up with this stupid dreadful religion stuffed down their throats.

I don't doubt that some people have some emotional baggage but I've seen people with emotional baggage when it didn't even relate to religion. Quite honestly part of it is how the person is treated by their parents and the church and I'm not going to say that there are not some people out there that do things to create that emotional baggage. The key is though that is not the circumstance in all cases.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by photon

I'm not asking why others don't, I'm asking why you think your choice is superior to so many others.

I never said that my choice is superior than others. I have faith that my choice is correct and if I'm wrong I'll suffer the consequences.

Originally Posted by photon

Sure but your analogy is flawed for a couple of reasons.

First, you know exactly the consequences of robbing a bank. You can read the laws, they are unambiguous and everyone works off the same set of laws. You have direct evidence of the consequences, you see the police standoffs on the news, you read about the people in question going to jail, it's clear.

Whereas in the case of salvation we have none of those things. We have many sets of laws in different writings, and many different groups that read each of those sets of writings to come up with different sets of laws again. Even the Bible itself isn't a single set of Laws, there are varying and conflicting messages within the Bible with respect to salvation, there are many versions of the Bible, all of which were written generations to centuries after the events in question, and many different variations on Christianity itself in the early years. And in the case of salvation, the consequences are unknowable. People believe someone goes to heaven or hell, but there is no way to provide evidence to that, so ultimately there's no way to determine if one set of laws is better than another, because it's impossible to know the outcome. It's not a fair test.

Second, your analogy is an example of not doing something, which is the opposite of salvation's case of having to do something, so it's not a good analogy. If you choose to not rob the bank, there's no direct negative consequences.

But salvation is the opposite, if I choose to do nothing, I go to hell. I have to actively choose to do something to avoid a global negative consequence. I didn't choose to have that global negative consequence around.

Like I said before a better analogy is finding a cute girl, and telling her that she has to marry you or you will lock her in the basement forever. She will of course choose to marry you, but that's not a free choice, that's coercion.

Do you see how your robbing the bank example isn't a good analogy?

No I still think my analogy is a fine example because by not choosing that is making a choice. Again I don't look at it as holding a gun to someones head but rather if I didn't tell someone about the potential consequences I'm doing that person a disservice. They still have the free will to choose, it's more the matter of making an informed decision.

Originally Posted by photon

Ah see you're at the point I was at many years ago. I believed because I believed, and if I didn't have anything to support a particular belief I believed it anyway by faith. My faith was basically a tautology.

The problem with that is then there's nothing to set it apart from anyone else's faith. It goes back to my question of why you think your choice of faith is superior to so many others'.

I believe what I believe because of what I read in the bible. About the superiority thing refer to my response above.

Originally Posted by photon

This is a cop-out and I think you know it. You answer the generic case all the time when you discuss any point of doctrine. Every week the generic case is preached from the pulpit in whatever church you attend. The Bible speaks, which scriptures do you think apply and why?

Yes I know it is a cop out but it is also true. I can find scriptures but really as you said before you were a believer at one time so I'm sure you know some of the verses that apply. I know you want me to answer this question directly for some reason and no offense but I'd like to know why you really want me to answer it that badly. I can't help but think in the back of my mind you are wanting to try to trap me in something.

Originally Posted by photon

Alright. So if god chooses to provide you with things that convince you, that's great for you, but what about the rest of us who don't get that benefit?

And what about the followers of other religions? Muslims will say the exact same things, that god has done things in their life that support their conclusion that their god is real.

Are they right too? Maybe all religions are equal but different paths to the same god?

I never said that God provided me with things to convince me, rather I put my faith in him and trusted in his will and as a result things happened to convince me. In my life where I wasn't so concerned about Gods will but rather what I wanted I've also seen results that have convinced me that God's will is more important than mine. What about the rest of the people who don't trust there lives to God? I really don't see how that has an impact. The goal isn't to test God to prove that he exists it really does come down to faith.

My belief is that there is only one path to God. I will not waiver from that. I can't comment on if people from other religions say the same thing. I know that answer won't be satisfactory to you but I can't speak of things I do not know.

Originally Posted by photon

Exactly, it comes down faith. I was at that exact point as well, I believed what I believed because of faith. But others believed what they believed because of faith too, and their beliefs were different than mine, sometimes incompatible even. Is my belief the right one?

To think that I, out of the billions of billions of humans, alive and dead, just happened to have the exact right set of beliefs was plainly absurd, so I strove to get back to basics, why did I believe what I did?

Unfortunately it could not stand up to scrutiny.

See that's where we are different. I have faith that what God teaches in the bible is correct. Yes I know there are different versions of the bible (ie. New International version, King James, etc.) but what is said in the bible is essentially the same message. I do believe that if a person is a christian than they are saved. I'm not concerned with different small variations (ie. baptist, presbyterian, pentacostal, etc.) because as long as the main message is the same the other stuff is really theological differences (and I'm not a theologist). Bottom line is I believe what I do because of what is in the Bible and I believe the bible.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

Bottom line is I believe what I do because of what is in the Bible and I believe the bible.

Question? Do you believe the bible as a whole or is it just how you interpret it's storys?

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by T@T

Question? Do you believe the bible as a whole or is it just how you interpret it's storys?

I believe the bible as a whole as well as the stories (ie. parables). I fully expect that people will criticize and attack me for saying that, although I would really hope that people would respect my beliefs and not attack me.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I believe the bible as a whole as well as the stories (ie. parables). I fully expect that people will criticize and attack me for saying that, although I would really hope that people would respect my beliefs and not attack me.

I'll respect your wishes with no attacks that as long as you don't quote the bible in your argument's...fair?

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'll respect your wishes with no attacks that as long as you don't quote the bible in your argument's...fair?

I haven't quoted the bible in any of my arguments thus far and in the event I do it's only if I've been requested to give verses.

[Stimpy]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I believe the bible as a whole as well as the stories (ie. parables). I fully expect that people will criticize and attack me for saying that, although I would really hope that people would respect my beliefs and not attack me.

Does that mean that you in turn will respect the beliefs of others, even if some of those people choose to believe nothing? Will you also respect people's right to live their life in any manner they so desire, even if it clashes with your Christian views and is in conflict with your interpretation of the bible?

I think you mentioned earlier the first amendment right to freedom of religion. Does that right also extend to freedom from religion? Thanks for keeping the discussion going and sane!

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Stimpy

Does that mean that you in turn will respect the beliefs of others, even if some of those people choose to believe nothing? Will you also respect people's right to live their life in any manner they so desire, even if it clashes with your Christian views and is in conflict with your interpretation of the bible?

I think you mentioned earlier the first amendment right to freedom of religion. Does that right also extend to freedom from religion? Thanks for keeping the discussion going and sane!

Yes, throughout this entire thread I've said that whatever choices any person makes that's their right. I see no reason to not respect anyone elses beliefs but just ask my beliefs be respected as well. Yes I mentioned freedom of religion and I respect freedom from religion. I've never forced my religion down anyone's throat. That doesn't mean I will stop sharing my beliefs, just as I'm sure that those who don't believe in religion feel free to share that people don't need to believe in God.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Without another belief system to attack atheism would lack all purpose and zeal. Without a enemy to demonize it would quickly fade away as a concept.

That is why atheists can't be content in their own unbelief. Try to find a book written by a atheist that promotes their belief without attacking other faiths. Compare that to the percentage of books in any christian book store that promotes its own beliefs without the need to even mention other belief systems. It is easy to see who is dependant on whom.

Without non-believers, missionaries would lack all purpose and zeal. Therefore, missionaries are parasites. QED! <- Your logic.

Atheism would exist in a world without religion. It is in no way dependent on religion for its survival. Therefore, it is not parasitic with religion as the host. Sure, without rival ideas there would be no need for argument, but that doesn't define a parasitic relationship.

The reason Christian book stores don't tell you about other belief systems is that they don't want to promote curiousity. It gets harder to tell people that you're the one true religion when they find out about the other religions out there, even moreso when they find out about religions that are now consider myths, even moreso when they figure out that there are an infinite number of possible religions, making the odds that any one religion is right infinitesimal. Christianity depends on ignorance, a lack of curiousity, a lack of critical thinking, and a lack of scrutiny. It's like if your kids don't know what candy is you're better of not mentioning it than telling them they shouldn't have it because it rots their teeth.

Of course, anything that states that there is a God is an attack on atheism. Christian books don't mention other belief systems? Well if you count atheism as a belief system, I can think of one that you should be quite familiar with. Doesn't the Bible talk about unbelievers?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by photon

Ah see you're at the point I was at many years ago. I believed because I believed, and if I didn't have anything to support a particular belief I believed it anyway by faith. My faith was basically a tautology.

[Draug]

Originally Posted by photon

And what about the followers of other religions? Muslims will say the exact same things, that god has done things in their life that support their conclusion that their god is real.

Are they right too? Maybe all religions are equal but different paths to the same god?

Exactly, it comes down faith. I was at that exact point as well, I believed what I believed because of faith. But others believed what they believed because of faith too, and their beliefs were different than mine, sometimes incompatible even. Is my belief the right one?

To think that I, out of the billions of billions of humans, alive and dead, just happened to have the exact right set of beliefs was plainly absurd, so I strove to get back to basics, why did I believe what I did?

Unfortunately it could not stand up to scrutiny.

My curiosity is killing me now ... I just have to ask.

What do you believe now? What answer has your very logical analysis provided?

There is no God? There are many Gods? There are many paths to the same God? It doesnt matter if one or more Gods exist?

[arloiginla]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Yes correct, 3 year olds cant make decisions other than "I must eat that candy now"!! Others make those decisions for them, hence the impressions that are placed on that childs life. Once they are able to make decisions most parents still prefer to over rule and manage their childrens lives, for good or bad. Your right about the fact that later in life they can change or make decisions on their own, but in a lot of cases there are huge scars left to deal with and emotional baggage that weighs them down.

here's some of that baggage...

http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm
http://new.exchristian.net/

excerpt from one...

Brought up in a Baptist heavily religious home in the UK....
Trouble is when you’re brought up in such a domineering environment there is bound to be some deep seated effect and eventually when I reached 20 I returned home (having left at 16) without a job or money and dreading living with my mother. In truth I was very vulnerable and I began to crack under the inevitable pressure to give my life to god. So I did – what a mistake – I went along and joined the merry brigade with all the hands in the air and speaking in tongues – believing everything I was brainwashed with and became a shadow of myself.

After a year or so my entire instinct was to run a mile but now I’m hooked in and worried about what the church will think but more importantly “what god will think of me”.

I had developed the fear – you know the one - fear of disapproval from god, fear of hell, fear of the devil prowling around like a lion – fear of blasphemy – fear of sex before marriage – literally anything and everything. I hated my life but felt like such a coward daring not to stand up to any of them. I became so disillusioned as my only real prayer was to stop feeling so worthless and hope to be more confident in myself – no change at all. I got married and when my wife told me she was expecting our first child that just did it for me.

I said to myself no way was any child of mine going to suffer the misery I did – no way on earth am I going to bring them up with this stupid dreadful religion stuffed down their throats.

You're confusing the religion with its followers. The God with the Christian.

Just because some parents are kooks doesn't make their God any less valid. Every religion (or lack thereof) has parents who indoctrinate their kids and instill fear, abuse, and such. Doesn't even mean the parents are following the religion properly, whether they think they are or not.

Ghandi said once, "I like their Christ, I don't like their Christians" or something to that effect.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by SebC

Without non-believers, missionaries would lack all purpose and zeal. Therefore, missionaries are parasites. QED! <- Your logic.

You are wrong. All the missionaries I know put God first and the community they serve second. I've seen some who have been forced off of a mission field take up service in their local church without a blink of an eye. There zeal rests in God.

Originally Posted by SebC

Atheism would exist in a world without religion. It is in no way dependent on religion for its survival. Therefore, it is not parasitic with religion as the host. Sure, without rival ideas there would be no need for argument, but that doesn't define a parasitic relationship.

Atheism is a negative proposition: "There is not a God". The argument becomes useless in the absence of a declaration that there is a God. Furthermore, that argument is the core and substance of what an atheist believes. Without that negative proposition you are not by definition an atheist. With that negative proposition and in the absence of everything else you believe you are still an atheist.

That is the reason the Atheists on this site start endless arguments against Christianity. Conversely you will find very little if any threads exposing the virtues of Atheism. And if they exist I'll bet you will find they contain attacks against Christianity and/or other faiths.

Originally Posted by SebC

The reason Christian book stores don't tell you about other belief systems is that they don't want to promote curiousity. It gets harder to tell people that you're the one true religion when they find out about the other religions out there, even moreso when they find out about religions that are now consider myths, even moreso when they figure out that there are an infinite number of possible religions, making the odds that any one religion is right infinitesimal. Christianity depends on ignorance, a lack of curiousity, a lack of critical thinking, and a lack of scrutiny. It's like if your kids don't know what candy is you're better of not mentioning it than telling them they shouldn't have it because it rots their teeth.

But, christian book stores do tell you about other belief systems including books about atheism. I suggest if you ever get a chance to pick a copy of "The Kingdom of the Cults" you grab it. It surveys most of the major religions of the world giving both history and doctrinal distinctives. It quotes reference material from these various communities extensively and does so in an even handed manner.

My point is that although that material exists it is a very small part of the written material produced by christiandom. The focus of Christianity is Jesus Christ and His redemptive work. It is a positive proposition.

Originally Posted by SebC

Of course, anything that states that there is a God is an attack on atheism. Christian books don't mention other belief systems? Well if you count atheism as a belief system, I can think of one that you should be quite familiar with. Doesn't the Bible talk about unbelievers?

Very few unbelievers are atheists. In fact I can't think of one atheist mentioned in the Bible. I'm sure a few did exist.

Declaring there is a God is not an attack on atheism. It is a positive revelation that isn't dependant on atheism for its origin or to give it meaningful purpose. In fact it wouldn't even be aware of atheism if atheists weren't on the attack. Atheists, on the other hand wouldn't have a God to deny without hearing that positive declaration: "There is a God".

[Cain]

I grew up in a christian household, went to church every sunday until I hit university and was part of a fairly normal middle of the spectrum christian family. Being christian did not define us, but we were part of that community for a while. It is interesting for me to think about how my transition from a believer as a child to a non believer as an adult went. Initially, I think it was due to anger or spite. Why believe in a god if he does nothing to shelter you from a harrowing and terrible experience? It felt fake to sing "my god is an awesome god" while at home and outside of that church your life was being tossed around by seemingly demonic forces that perpetrated endless acts of evil upon you and your family. I don't want to overrate my negative experiences growing up, as I recognize that even with all of the strife and issues that took over those days for me, I know that many others have gone through much worse than I.

I think that those experiences were what first made me start to think though. Why believe in a god that does nothing? Why do all these people make excuses for him? These questions are largely irrelevant, but they were stepping stones to the bigger questions like: why do I actually believe what I do? Is there actually something out there?

I've rambled a little bit for no real reason now, but it has always been interesting to me how people seemingly get trapped into a belief without logically questioning it. I do not mean any offense to any of the religious in here as I think there is nothing wrong with believing in an undefinable higher power...Pretty arrogant to think that we are at the top of the universe (though hey, maybe we are!). But to believe in an established deity like the one presented in the bible seems ludicrous. While this graph that was the original point of this thread may have gone to some extremes in making the number of inconsistencies seem high, no doubt many of them ring true, and doesn't that make anyone stop to think why they believe in this ridiculously old book? I phrase this poorly, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone would trust implicitly what is written in the bible. Even without this graph, shouldn't that question be easy to answer?

As for tolerance, while I cannot understand how some people believe what they do, it does not bother me in the slightest. As long as it stays in their personal realm. The problem here, is that some of those beliefs (that I have zero problem with people having) make it out of the personal realm and into the public one where it impacts many other people (ie. evolution vs intelligent design in classrooms). This...I have zero tolerance for, and I think this is where a lot of the "venom" people see in atheists originates from.

If I chat with someone at a cafe/bar/wherever and find out that they believe in a god, that is great. Totally fine. If I find out this same person is making government or educational policies that stem from these beliefs, there is going to be a problem.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That is the reason the Atheists on this site start endless arguments against Christianity. Conversely you will find very little if any threads exposing the virtues of Atheism. And if they exist I'll bet you will find they contain attacks against Christianity and/or other faiths.

Well, we all kind of thought that they were kind of obvious. Kind of like making a thread saying that the oilers suck.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Atheism is a negative proposition: "There is not a God". The argument becomes useless in the absence of a declaration that there is a God. Furthermore, that argument is the core and substance of what an atheist believes. Without that negative proposition you are not by definition an atheist. With that negative proposition and in the absence of everything else you believe you are still an atheist.

That's a narrow definition of atheism. A broader definition is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Hence, even if the concept of God didn't exist, atheism still exists, and in fact everyone would be atheist. Perhaps we wouldn't have a word for atheism. But we would still be atheist, just as, I suspect, babies, dogs, dolphins, elephants, chimpanzees, ants, trees, bacteria and rocks are atheist. None of them believe in God.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That is the reason the Atheists on this site start endless arguments against Christianity. Conversely you will find very little if any threads exposing the virtues of Atheism. And if they exist I'll bet you will find they contain attacks against Christianity and/or other faiths.

Atheism is the default/neutral state. "Leaded gasoline is bad" is better thread material than "the virtues of unleaded gasoline". Besides, how do you determine if something is good or bad without comparing it to the alternatives? Is unleaded gasoline really "good"? Hard to say, but it's better than leaded.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

My point is that although that material exists it is a very small part of the written material produced by christiandom. The focus of Christianity is Jesus Christ and His redemptive work. It is a positive proposition.

"There is a God" is a positive proposition, but Christianity is full of negative propositions. By my count, 8 out of the 10 commandments are negative propositions. Going back to your logic then, they are parasitic, dependent on other gods, false idols, taking the Lord's name in vain, murderers, adulterers, thieves, liars, lust and greed for their existence and purpose. But even if those things all disappeared, the 10 commandments would still exist. There would just be no need to propagate them.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Very few unbelievers are atheists. In fact I can't think of one atheist mentioned in the Bible. I'm sure a few did exist.

Interesting. Wouldn't "unbelievers" include atheists even if it doesn't refer to them specifically? Who exactly are "unbelievers" then? Are they specifically defined such that atheists are excluded? Today's definition of unbelievers certainly includes atheists, but perhaps a different biblical definition exists. If so, I would not be aware of it.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Declaring there is a God is not an attack on atheism.

Err... how is saying there is a God not an attack on the lack of belief that there is a God? (I have feeling this will have us going in circles, so feel free not to answer rather than repeat your answer about positive and negative propositions).

[photon]

Originally Posted by Draug

My curiosity is killing me now ... I just have to ask.

What do you believe now? What answer has your very logical analysis provided?

There is no God? There are many Gods? There are many paths to the same God? It doesnt matter if one or more Gods exist?

I guess a wannabe naturalistic pantheist.

On the question of belief, leaning towards weak atheism, though deism is appealing for the wrong reasons.

On the question of knowledge, leaning towards strong agnosticism.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I don't doubt that some people have some emotional baggage but I've seen people with emotional baggage when it didn't even relate to religion. Quite honestly part of it is how the person is treated by their parents and the church and I'm not going to say that there are not some people out there that do things to create that emotional baggage. The key is though that is not the circumstance in all cases.

Thanks, nice response.
I believe that any one thing, or things that cause grief, baggage, distress, etc to humans should be directly dealt with. Every one of us has this baggage, its a matter of degree and most of us learn to deal with the issues we were unfairly dealt at a young age, or otherwise.
To those who are dealt a bad hand on a consistent basis by any group or groups, we should not bury our heads in the sand and simply ignore the issue(s).
We know that there are many religious groups who unfairly push their demons onto the shoulders of young children and then let those children grow into uncertain and angry adults. It is not a just response to ignore the issue or further to ignore the catalyst.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Thanks, nice response.
I believe that any one thing, or things that cause grief, baggage, distress, etc to humans should be directly dealt with. Every one of us has this baggage, its a matter of degree and most of us learn to deal with the issues we were unfairly dealt at a young age, or otherwise.
To those who are dealt a bad hand on a consistent basis by any group or groups, we should not bury our heads in the sand and simply ignore the issue(s).
We know that there are many religious groups who unfairly push their demons onto the shoulders of young children and then let those children grow into uncertain and angry adults. It is not a just response to ignore the issue or further to ignore the catalyst.

I never said to ignore the issue (and no I don't have a solution on how to deal with the issue) but don't paint everyone (every person who is a Christian for example) with the same brush.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I never said to ignore the issue (and no I don't have a solution on how to deal with the issue) but don't paint everyone (every person who is a Christian for example) with the same brush.

I was careful not to paint everyone with the same brush...just stating the facts.