Hundreds of cops making six figures

[Bobblehead]

Being on salary means absolutely nothing with regards to OT.

In Alberta, under the Employment Standards Code, overtime is treated on a daily and/or weekly status. Overtime must be paid to all employees (regardless if they are paid a weekly, monthly, or annual salary except if they are exempt) on hours worked in excess of eight hours a day or 44 hours per week, whichever is greater (the higher of the two numbers is overtime hours worked in the week). The overtime rate is 11/2 times an employee’s regular rate of pay unless the employer and employee have entered into an overtime agreement. Some industries have different overtime daily and weekly hours for the purpose of calculating overtime pay.

http://www.hrmguide.net/canada/law/alberta/overtime.htm

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But my house is burning down. Sorry lady, I'm not allowed to work overtime, you'll have to wait for the next crew to get here.

Why are you stopping CPR on my mommy. Sorry kiddo, but my shift is up, another crew is on the way, now the front door is which way?

Wow, this time sensitive evidence could really break open this ca . . . (Flintstones whistle) Yaabba Dabba Doo . . .

Nurse where are you going . . . for god sakes I need you to keep giving this patient an open chest heart massage. Sorry sir, my 8 hours is up, I would page nurse Betty on the way out. . . . but then I would have to apply for overtime and get crapped on by the government.

MJM is having trouble with this part.

But it doesn't compute with his definition of being a professional... overload, overload.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But my house is burning down. Sorry lady, I'm not allowed to work overtime, you'll have to wait for the next crew to get here.

Why are you stopping CPR on my mommy. Sorry kiddo, but my shift is up, another crew is on the way, now the front door is which way?

Wow, this time sensitive evidence could really break open this ca . . . (Flintstones whistle) Yaabba Dabba Doo . . .

Nurse where are you going . . . for god sakes I need you to keep giving this patient an open chest heart massage. Sorry sir, my 8 hours is up, I would page nurse Betty on the way out. . . . but then I would have to apply for overtime and get crapped on by the government.

Those are just over the top examples. How about the nurse that picks up 3-4 set extra shifts a week at double time, when they could hire another nurse to pick up the slack for half the cost? These nurses all cry about the OT they work, but the minute they said, alright no OT we'll bring in some new nurses, there would be an absolute revolt because it would bring some of that back down to a realistic salary. My sister is a nurse, and she works her 40 hours a week and that is it. She'd come right out and tell you the ones who are working these 60 hours weeks and crying are only working it because they want to, and the minute they took it away they'd be up in arms.

Obviously you can't just leave a crime scene or an operating table, but picking up 2-3 shifts a week at double time is unnecessary and if it wasn't for the unions guarding their golden ticket it wouldn't be.

[CaptainCrunch]

Putting the police, fire department, paramedics and nurses on an incentive based pay, would be incredibly dumb.

Cops would get sloppy, because they would be in a rush to close cases with convictions. How long before someone with a debt load starts manufacturing evidence.

Or a traffic cop starts smashing brake lights?

Or a detective starts manufacturing busts.

Or a cop refuses to further investigate minor crimes because it contributes to his areas crime rate.

Or a paramedic reduces the emergency drug use to a patient because it increases his shift costs.

There's a reason why these guys don't have incentive based pay.

If you look at the article about the higher paid detectives, they have the experience and the expertise that requires them to work those type of hours.

If you look at the constable, its because Cops are on call and needed.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by MJM

Those are just over the top examples. How about the nurse that picks up 3-4 set extra shifts a week at double time, when they could hire another nurse to pick up the slack for half the cost? These nurses all cry about the OT they work, but the minute they said, alright no OT we'll bring in some new nurses, there would be an absolute revolt because it would bring some of that back down to a realistic salary. My sister is a nurse, and she works her 40 hours a week and that is it. She'd come right out and tell you the ones who are working these 60 hours weeks and crying are only working it because they want to, and the minute they took it away they'd be up in arms.

Obviously you can't just leave a crime scene or an operating table, but picking up 2-3 shifts a week at double time is unnecessary and if it wasn't for the unions guarding their golden ticket it wouldn't be.

Now the unions are in charge of hiring and it is all their fault? This just gets better and better.

Oh, I see you are an expert in the nursing field now to.

[Resolute 14]

I've got news for you MJM, if it was that easy, it would have been done by now.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Putting the police, fire department, paramedics and nurses on an incentive based pay, would be incredibly dumb.

Cops would get sloppy, because they would be in a rush to close cases with convictions. How long before someone with a debt load starts manufacturing evidence.

Or a traffic cop starts smashing brake lights?

Or a detective starts manufacturing busts.

Or a cop refuses to further investigate minor crimes because it contributes to his areas crime rate.

Or a paramedic reduces the emergency drug use to a patient because it increases his shift costs.

There's a reason why these guys don't have incentive based pay.

If you look at the article about the higher paid detectives, they have the experience and the expertise that requires them to work those type of hours.

If you look at the constable, its because Cops are on call and needed.

I'm not even for a bonus plan. Someone just mentioned here that the office workers get bonus plans, and i'm pointing out they are for tangible results. Not just accumulating as many hours as one possible can at time and a half.

I'm all for telling them there's no more OT unless specifically required (Like a detective), and hiring more frontline officers to fill those shifts at a lower cost. Even if the city gave every officer a 5k pay raise to compensate for no overtime and bonus, they'd still be miles ahead given over 25% of their staff is already making over $100,000 because of OT.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Now the unions are in charge of hiring and it is all their fault? This just gets better and better.

Oh, I see you are an expert in the nursing field now to.

You think the unions are going to just sit their and let a good portion of their members revenue get cut by 15-20% with the elimination of OT?

Read a book on economics.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by MJM

Doctors are a professional though, they shouldn't get paid overtime. I don't see how anyone can claim to be a professional in one hand, and demand paid overtime in the other.

Yes, crazy people that want to get paid for all the work they do are clearly unprofessional. Those unions and their unreasonable expectations!

My favorite as a "professional" was when the company would charge a client overtime rates and then not pay any of that back to the individual who actually did the work. I'm sure the members of the CPS would be as happy with getting hired out by the city for various events for free whilst the government took all the money, or attending court on their own time.

Are you a manager MJM? If so, you must be a treat to work for, and an inspirational leader.

[metallicat]

Why are you like this MJM? What happened between you an the police? It must've been something.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MJM

I'm not even for a bonus plan. Someone just mentioned here that the office workers get bonus plans, and i'm pointing out they are for tangible results. Not just accumulating as many hours as one possible can at time and a half.

I'm all for telling them there's no more OT unless specifically required (Like a detective), and hiring more frontline officers to fill those shifts at a lower cost. Even if the city gave every officer a 5k pay raise to compensate for no overtime and bonus, they'd still be miles ahead given over 25% of their staff is already making over $100,000 because of OT.

I'd like to see you back this up with hard numbers.

1. How many officers work for the CPS?
2. How much would it cost to give each a $5k raise?
3. How much overtime is being worked?
4. How much is that overtime costing the city? (and be specific. If an officer is working OT at the Saddledome and being paid by the Flames, that is not a cost to us)
5. How many officers would have to be hired to make up those OT hours?
6. How much would those new officers cost us?
7. Is the cost of those new officers + the $5k raise < the cost of having these officers work overtime?
8. Is the cost difference enough to make putting more new recruits lacking experience on the streets in place of experienced veterans?

Most of the argument thus far has been emotional hyperbole. When you have the answer to questions 7 and 8, then we can start to consider the hard facts surrounding your plans.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by MJM

I'm all for telling them there's no more OT unless specifically required (Like a detective), and hiring more frontline officers to fill those shifts at a lower cost.

So if Officer Gumby arrests me and is required to testify at my trial during the day, when he happens to be on night shift, you want Officer Pokey to be the one who shows up at court? Did you have to go to management school to think that one up?

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by MJM

Must depends on the field. My neighbour is a surgeon and he gets paid for whatever hour he works.

Doctors are a professional though, they shouldn't get paid overtime. I don't see how anyone can claim to be a professional in one hand, and demand paid overtime in the other.

He's not getting paid overtime though, as he has no base salary. He gets paid per operation/patient consult. He also has no pension, no paid sick leave, nor set vacation time.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by MJM

You think the unions are going to just sit their and let a good portion of their members revenue get cut by 15-20% with the elimination of OT?

Read a book on economics.

Well, being the VP of a Law Enforcement union I can certainly say that we would rather have more officers any day than maintaining peoples overtime. You link me the book that says unions would rather maintain a smaller work force in exchange for more OT.

Even though I am a VP with my union, I am one of those people that like and hate unions. I would suggest that most unions like to swell their membership. It provides them more money and more bargaining power. Unions don't get money based on a percentage of what their members make. They get money on the number of members they have.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

Why are you like this MJM? What happened between you an the police? It must've been something.

It's called a CPS rejection letter - and man do they sting.

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by jammies

So if Officer Gumby arrests me and is required to testify at my trial during the day, when he happens to be on night shift, you want Officer Pokey to be the one who shows up at court? Did you have to go to management school to think that one up?

I don't even think that was implied. Seems like quite a jump you made there.

I don't think MJM is suggesting getting rid of OT completely, but rather cutting back on excessive OT where other officers/nurses/etc. could be hired. Would you rather a tired medical professional working on you after a 60 hour work week, tired and stressed out, increasing the chance of potentially fatal mistakes? Or would you prefer a well-rested person performing these procedures?

Now, I don't agree with MJM necessarily on the amount that CPS is getting paid. I'm okay with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just sit there and belittle him simply because he doesn't share my opinion. I don't recall him pulling out one-sentenced, condescending replies to others here.

I think some of you need to relax, realize opinions do exist and they won't always be the same as yours.

Note: This isn't with regards to all posters here.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Yasa

I don't even think that was implied. Seems like quite a jump you made there.

I don't think MJM is suggesting getting rid of OT completely, but rather cutting back on excessive OT where other officers/nurses/etc. could be hired. Would you rather a tired medical professional working on you after a 60 hour work week, tired and stressed out, increasing the chance of potentially fatal mistakes? Or would you prefer a well-rested person performing these procedures?

Now, I don't agree with MJM necessarily on the amount that CPS is getting paid. I'm okay with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just sit there and belittle him simply because he doesn't share my opinion. I don't recall him pulling out one-sentenced, condescending replies to others here.

I think some of you need to relax, realize opinions do exist and they won't always be the same as yours.

Note: This isn't with regards to all posters here.

The bottom line is he simply doesn't understand the law enforcement field. Law enforcement is so fluid that it is really hard to plan when you will need officers. There are so many variables. What I could see happening is Calgary hires an X number of more officers and then all of a sudden the over time has now increased X number of percent because you have that many more officers creating work. In our office we could easily double our staff and still have more than enough work.

I for one have no problem with him debating this issue; but he comes across very arrogant and he acts like he knows all the issues which he clearly doesn't.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Being on salary means absolutely nothing with regards to OT.

http://www.hrmguide.net/canada/law/alberta/overtime.htm

Although it doesn't have a lot to do with this conversation, there are plenty of exceptions to the OT rules you posted. For example, these professions don't aren't entitled to overtime at all under the Employment Standards Code:

• employees on a farm or a ranch
• domestic employees
• various types of salespersons
• professionals such as real estate brokers, and licensed insurance and securities salespersons
• professions such as architects, engineers, lawyers, psychologists and information systems professionals
• managers, supervisors and those employed in a confidential capacity
• licensed land agents
• instructors or counsellors at a non-profit educational or recreational camp
• extras in a film or video production
• employees covered by other Acts (academic staff)
• municipal police officers

Other industries do get overtime but they are paid in a manner that differs from the rule. For example, ambulance attendants have to work in excess of 10 hours a day or 60 hours a week before they are entitled to overtime under the Employment Standards Code. Of course, the specific agreement between employer and employee can deviate from these standards.

http://employment.alberta.ca/SFW/1470.html

[V]

Originally Posted by MJM

I'm not even for a bonus plan. Someone just mentioned here that the office workers get bonus plans, and i'm pointing out they are for tangible results. Not just accumulating as many hours as one possible can at time and a half.

I'm all for telling them there's no more OT unless specifically required (Like a detective), and hiring more frontline officers to fill those shifts at a lower cost. Even if the city gave every officer a 5k pay raise to compensate for no overtime and bonus, they'd still be miles ahead given over 25% of their staff is already making over $100,000 because of OT.

This is getting painful.

First of all, it is cheaper to pay an employee 40 hours of double time than it is to pay 2 employees for 40 hours of straight time. I would imagine that for the cops this would be even more true than just a standard office employee.

Second, having a professional designation does not exclude you from being paid overtime. It does give the employer the opportunity to label you 'exempt' but it is not a foregone conclusion. I know plenty of professionals that collect overtime pay.

Third, there are plenty of unions that employ professionals, and if you look at the HAY system of ranking union staff there is a professional designation within there.

I find it painful that you have claimed to be an expert in STIPs, and paid quite well, too. It is an obvious mis-use of corporate dollars, as the mis-information you are stating within this thread indicates that you are fairly unknowledgeable in the field of HR or total compensation.

Just another corporate shill that gets paid too much to know too little. It appears to be altogether too common in private industry these days.

[V]

Originally Posted by Yasa

Would you rather a tired medical professional working on you after a 60 hour work week, tired and stressed out, increasing the chance of potentially fatal mistakes? Or would you prefer a well-rested person performing these procedures?

Very good point, but not MJM's point. His point is that OT is less expensive than hiring more staff. Which is completely false.