When do they finally Axe Park N Ride?

[redforever]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Not taxes that pay for operations, see above.

So what? You don't pay for operations or maintenance when you use services outside of Calgary either. Fact is 2/3 of the cost of the C Train is paid from taxes paid by citizens living outside of Calgary.

And when you go outside of Calgary, a portion of your taxes goes to the infrastruce there as well. I have no idea if it is 2/3 though. Hey, maybe I am paying an unfair portion compared to you. I do know however that the C Train is a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 financing among the municipality, the province and the feds.

It is petty and simply nickel and diming to get into anything else.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Dion

There's a lot of people from Calgary using High River's hospital and ER. The wait times for anytime i've had to use the ER have been less than half an hour. Now it's going up because of all the outside useage

Sounds like High River is overserviced, Calgary is underserviced. My tax dollars at work.

[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by SebC

It is, but I don't know how it's really an issue for Calgarians (different for visitors). Just buy the ten packs and keep the tickets in your wallet... you'll get through 'em eventually.

Till recently I've always had a UPASS.

Realistically, I don't use the trains often enough for a 10 pack of tickets...I'd probably just lose them. Guess I'm stuck waiting till 2014 for the new machines (or remembering quarters)

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by redforever

I do know however that the C Train is a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 financing among the municipality, the province and the feds.

I'm sorry, it's getting late and I can't reply to your whole post, but this is false. Again, I don't have the exact numbers from the late seventies all the way up until now, but the City and Province pay much more than the feds do for capital infrastructure, and operations is all City. A lot of the expansion in the early 2000s was debt financed by the City, the WestLRT is mostly Provincial grant, and most of the smaller extensions in the late 2000s was some combination of City/Province. The feds chipped in for a portion of 33 LRVs in 2005 and that's all I can remember them putting in.

EDIT: The feds also paid for part of the odds and ends package that includes SE BRT lots, smart cards, realtime arrival information, part of 7th Ave. refurbishment, 4 car platforms, etc.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by SebC

Sounds like High River is overserviced, Calgary is underserviced. My tax dollars at work.

Best part is there is no parking fees to use our hospital like in Calgary

[redforever]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

We all pay taxes, but we don't all pay the same taxes. When I go to Lethbridge and ride a bus or use a washroom or garbage can at a public park, I am being subsidized by the Lethbridge taxpayer.

The transit driver and the electricity powering the train, among other things, is being paid for by the Calgary taxpayer, but not the Okotoks, Cochrane, High Prairie or Oyen taxpayers. They do not share that cost, and it is the Calgary taxpayers' alone to bear.
Oyster(ish) cards: forthcoming.

And when you use the transit in Lethbridge, the driver, the energy used to supply the transit, among other things, is being paid for by the Lethbridge taxpayer, not by the taxpayers of Calgary. The Calgary taxpayers do not share that cost and it is the Lethbridge taxpayer's alone to bear.

There are countless people who use transit and all kinds of services in municipalities who do not pay for the maintenance of the services. How about all the tourists who come to Calgary during Stampede. Perhaps you should add into your considerations all the other dollars they do bring to your city.

It works both ways and if one of us has to pay a bit more than the other when the whole picture is focused, well so be it. That is how things happen when you live in a town, to live in a city, to live in the country, to live in a province, to live in a country.

And no, we don't all pay the same taxes. So I suppose you think transit fares should be adjusted so that those with more income should pay more than those who are needy?

But at least in Alberta, we pay a flat tax.

If you think that at the end of the day, everyone will pay their exact portion of any maintenance bills, you are mistaken, unless you are thinking of the home, condo, or whatever you own and live in.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I'm sorry, it's getting late and I can't reply to your whole post, but this is false. Again, I don't have the exact numbers from the late seventies all the way up until now, but the City and Province pay much more than the feds do for capital infrastructure, and operations is all City. A lot of the expansion in the early 2000s was debt financed by the City, the WestLRT is mostly Provincial grant, and most of the smaller extensions in the late 2000s was some combination of City/Province. The feds chipped in for a portion of 33 LRVs in 2005 and that's all I can remember them putting in.

Whatever. As you say, most has at least some provincial funding and my taxes have at least bought a seat on one of the C Trains. I will be careful to use that seat only in the future though. You ok with that?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by redforever

If you think that at the end of the day, everyone will pay their exact portion of any maintenance bills, you are mistaken, unless you are thinking of the home, condo, or whatever you own and live in.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by SebC

Sounds like High River is overserviced, Calgary is underserviced. My tax dollars at work.

And on bended knees, we do thank you from the very bottom of our hearts.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by redforever

If you think that at the end of the day, everyone will pay their exact portion of any maintenance bills, you are mistaken, unless you are thinking of the home, condo, or whatever you own and live in.

Depnding on where you live In Calgary and the size of your home some Calgarians pay more property taxes than others. Maybe there should be a graduated fee for transit parking based on how much you pay in property taxes. Can't have some Calgarians subsidising other transit users in the city

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Flames0910

I think you're being more than a little myopic here and with the ultra-rationalistic argument that follows...

Probably yeah.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by redforever

So what?

It matters because that is the issue being discussed in this thread. The Park N' Ride fee goes toward the operation of the transit system.

You stated:

Originally Posted by redforever

But we all pay taxes, and as such, don't crap the bed because someone else uses a service that we both have paid for.

I presume you mean this to say that "we both" (being Alberta and Canada taxpayers, but not both Calgary) use a service that the Park N' Ride fee goes to. This is not correct. If that is not what you meant, I apologize for misinterpreting and hope you let me know what you did mean.

Originally Posted by redforever

And when you use the transit in Lethbridge, the driver, the energy used to supply the transit, among other things, is being paid for by the Lethbridge taxpayer, not by the taxpayers of Calgary. The Calgary taxpayers do not share that cost and it is the Lethbridge taxpayer's alone to bear.

Yes. That is exactly what I said, and exactly what I meant.

Originally Posted by redforever

There are countless people who use transit and all kinds of services in municipalities who do not pay for the maintenance of the services. How about all the tourists who come to Calgary during Stampede. Perhaps you should add into your considerations all the other dollars they do bring to your city.

I do, and they are in aggregate not insignificant. As I stated in an earlier post, this is an entirely different set of circumstances than those who depend on Calgary's services for their livelihood, but do not pay for them as Calgarians (let me make this clear, any Calgarian, rich or poor, Pump Hill or Radisson Heights) do.

The reality is that a much higher proportion of Okotoksians, Cochranites or Crossfielders use Calgary's services (primarily transportation) in their day-to-day lives, and indeed depend on them for their livelihoods than the inverse. Calgarians may go to Cochrane for the odd ice cream, but the vastly overwhelming majority aren't going there Monday to Friday, week in, week out. There's a difference between tourism and commuting and it is significant. Surely you can acknowledge this.

Originally Posted by redforever

And no, we don't all pay the same taxes. So I suppose you think transit fares should be adjusted so that those with more income should pay more than those who are needy?

No. That is not at all what I am saying. When I say "same taxes" I don't mean same amount, or same total. I mean tax streams. I don't pay Grande Prairie property taxes, but some people do. That means that I don't pay for the same services that those who pay those taxes do.

Originally Posted by redforever

If you think that at the end of the day, everyone will pay their exact portion of any maintenance bills, you are mistaken, unless you are thinking of the home, condo, or whatever you own and live in.

I do not think that. However, there is a difference between paying some portion (however big or small) and paying no portion. I'll expand on what I mean by that below.

Originally Posted by redforever

Whatever. As you say, most has at least some provincial funding and my taxes have at least bought a seat on one of the C Trains. I will be careful to use that seat only in the future though. You ok with that?

I'm getting the feeling that you have misunderstood me. Using your seat example, there is a cost for the seat, and there is a cost for the use of the seat. All Canadians have paid for some portion of the seat, but the use of the seat is paid for by three groups, Calgary taxpayers, those who pay Calgary Transit fares and those who pay Park N' Ride fees, with there being some obvious overlaps between those groups.

The difference between capital costs (buying the seat) and the operational costs (transporting to and fro with a butt in it, cleaning it, repairing it) is important because different tax streams and fees go into one or the other. The Park N' Ride fee goes to operations.

I can't claim to have paid for the oldest wing of the Rockyview Hospital because I wasn't around when it was built. The 65 year old guy born and raised in Medicine Hat can. However, we can both claim to pay for the ongoing maintenance of, use of and running of the Hospital. I can claim to have paid for a portion of the 6:00 AM train northbound from Somerset tomorrow, both in user fees (if I'm on it) and taxes. The guy from High River has only paid the user fees if he's on it. The guy from Medicine Hat pays nothing unless it's an extremely rare case and he's visiting Calgary and is on the train too. What is being claimed by some in this thread is that they have paid (however much) toward things they have, in fact, not.

The difference is significant in the context of this thread, because if the Park N' Ride fee is eliminated or altered, it affects the burden put on the other two groups. Good, bad or otherwise, that's the fact of the matter.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by redforever

So what? You don't pay for operations or maintenance when you use services outside of Calgary either. Fact is 2/3 of the cost of the C Train is paid from taxes paid by citizens living outside of Calgary.

And when you go outside of Calgary, a portion of your taxes goes to the infrastruce there as well. I have no idea if it is 2/3 though. Hey, maybe I am paying an unfair portion compared to you. I do know however that the C Train is a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 financing among the municipality, the province and the feds.

It is petty and simply nickel and diming to get into anything else.

What maintenance are you referring to? The cost of roads upkeep? Traffic control costs? Bridges? or is there some other offering by the MD of Rockyview that a normal City of Calgary resident uses that has escaped my detection.

The hospital argument made by Dion is a fantastic one, because out of area use most certainly degrades wait times in smaller centers like High River, but since Health Care is funded by the province one could easily argue that as long as you stay within the province there is no difference.

[Clarkey]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

I hope they keep it. I am all for taxing the users to pay for the c-train rather than taxing everyone.

Are you a fan of installing toll booths on Deerfoot and Crowchild too?

[algernon]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Are you a fan of installing toll booths on Deerfoot and Crowchild too?

While I have joked in the past about that idea, I really don't think it'd be that hard to put into practice with RFID tags. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-f...ion#Toll_roads
Pass a new law, incorporate the tags into the registration stickers on licence plates, mount readers on sign posts along the roads and presto! instant toll road. As mentioned before, Deerfoot is a provincial road, so Calgary probably can't turn that into a toll road, but I find the idea interesting. I bet a combination of tolls and Intercity transport would lessen bedroom communities' commuter traffic on City roads.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Are you a fan of installing toll booths on Deerfoot and Crowchild too?

There is a noticeable difference is paying for parking, which is common in our city and paying for driving down the street, which is not common in our city.

Everywhere you park you need to pay for parking. If it is at a store, you pay by purchasing goods. If it is a pay lot you stick your money in the machine. If it is a public lot, you pay by taxes and other user fees that might be associated with the public service you are using. I am not against putting direct pay parking in any location funded by the taxpayer if there is a case of that parking being high enough demand that it is full on a daily basis.

If there was a way to make people pay to drive down Deerfoot (maybe a bad example, since it is a provincial road, but whatever) then I would support such a system as long as

a) The traffic volume during that time the person is being charged is excessive or high volume.
b)The toll was paid in a manner which didn't interfere with traffic (RFID like algernon said is a good option)
c) The toll was reasonable and comparable to other services that allowed people to transport themselves around our city.
d) The purpose of the toll was to maintain or expand current roadways in our system, while encouraging people to use other forms of transit or carpool when available, reducing the strain on our transportation system.

If you use these 4 points and apply them to the parking situation at LRT stations:

a) Parking is paid for only during the day, before 6pm. After that it is free.
b) This is a point where LRT parking partially fails. They should have more payment options, with discounted monthly passes etc.
c) LRT Parking is by far the cheapest in the city for a high demand lot. For example: $3 for a day is almost half what students at the University (people with a low income source) are required to pay when they park. Factor in the combined cost of transit for people working downtown and it is $8 a day. You can't park for $8 a day downtown, let alone pay for gas or the other costs associated with the vehicle.
d) the purpose of the fee is to pay for the security of these lots and to encourage people to use the feeder bus system or carpool to the LRT stations whenever possible, reducing the strain on our transportation system.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Rathji

b) This is a point where LRT parking partially fails. They should have more payment options, with discounted monthly passes etc.

Not sure if you missed it in my marathon post earlier, but this exists. There is a monthly pass for $60.

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/p...ow_to_use.html

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Not sure if you missed it in my marathon post earlier, but this exists. There is a monthly pass for $60.

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/p...ow_to_use.html

I know, but it isn't discounted! Well it kind of is, because there are 21 work days on average in any given month so it is $3 off.

If you buy a bus pass, you get a considerable discount over the cost of buying tickets. They should have an option, perhaps tied with buying those bus passes that gives you cheaper parking for the month.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

I think forcing users from parasite communities to pay full freight for parking at Park N Ride lots makes perfect sense. They're a captive audience since most of the time the reason they moved out of the city was because they're cheap. You know if they have to go downtown for work every day, those cheapskates not going to pay for expensive downtown parking. So you set parking for them at something like $8 / day.

It'd be easy enough to distribute passes to Calgary residents so that their parking fee is much lower or nill.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

It'd be easy enough to distribute passes to Calgary residents so that their parking fee is much lower or nill.

This creates a spinoff market for the passes (paper, plastic, codes, whatever). The easiest way to do this is to piggyback on the registration system information and have your municipality be known based on the address linked to the vehicle's licence plate.