Shots fired at Korean border

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Someone save the KPOP!

And all the hot K-Drama girls!

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Why, out of all the people in North Korea, their army is at the front of the line for food and is relatively well fed.

These guys are hyper loyal and heavily indoctrinated through political education, and through the fear of the North Korean Army's brutal dicipline.

In the Korean War, it wasn't the average soldier that broke, it was the officers.

OK, put some bulgogi in there too.

But yup, I know what you mean. That army might actually fight to the last man.

What I'm afraid of is that if they start to lose, they'll start to kill their own civilians.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by nik-

Just because more existed in the army of another country at some point in history doesn't mean that 10000 isn't that much. It's a lot. Statements like this drive me crazy.

Well, it gives one perspective. Otherwise, someone might think "OMGz - 10,000 guns! More than anyone!", when in reality it's a relatively modest number, historically speaking...

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You also have to remember that modern artillary has longer range, can deliver huge payloads, fire faster are more mobile, and are far more accurate then WW2 Era guns. North Korea also has a huge stockpile of chemical weapons, and probably wouldn't be adverse to using them.

I would probably say that the NK could deliver equivalent destruction from further out with their 10,000 pieces then the russians could with 130,000 pieces.

But, otoh, how modern is their artillery? I expect it comes from the Soviet family of "cheap, hardy and plentiful", and isn't that much different from Soviet army stuff circa 1945...

[MarchHare]

If you want to read a really awesome amateur analysis of North Korea's artillery capabilities, check out this link: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...es!-%282009%29

It's a lengthy read, but well worth the time.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

But, otoh, how modern is their artillery? I expect it comes from the Soviet family of "cheap, hardy and plentiful", and isn't that much different from Soviet army stuff circa 1945...

Roughly 500 are long range and fairly modern and can hit Seoul on the outbreak of war. Rest are probably older as you suggest.

According to one report, a South Korean security analyst suggested that DPRK artillery pieces of calibers 170mm and 240mm "could fire 10,000 rounds per minute to Seoul and its environs." The number of Koksan guns is not publicly reported, but it is reliably reported that North Korea has about 500 long-range artillery tubes within range of Seoul, double the levels of a the mid-1990s. Large caliber self propelled artillery pieces typically have a sustained rate of fire of between four and eight rounds per minute. This suggests a total rate of fire of artillery alone of between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds per minute. The DPRK's two hundred 240mm MRLs fire either 12 or 22 rounds, providing a maximum single salvo of no more than 4,400 rounds.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...m-1978-170.htm

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

But, otoh, how modern is their artillery? I expect it comes from the Soviet family of "cheap, hardy and plentiful", and isn't that much different from Soviet army stuff circa 1945...

The stuff thats aimed at Seoul is their state of the art stuff. You also have to remember that its already pretty much dialed in so there will be next to no adjusted fire, and its aimed using GPS satellites so its going to land within inches of where its targeted.

There's another really nasty set of high calibre artillary pieces in regimental size thats aimed by communication triangulation, so you can bet that South Korean communications will be severely handicapped at the start of any war, especially if North Korea gets the first few minutes for free.

Yes they have the older stuff, but most of that stuff is their mobile stuff attached to Infantry and armoured formations and they don't really have to be as accurate.

The varsity is attached to the destruction of Seoul.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Roughly 500 are long range and fairly modern and can hit Seoul on the outbreak of war. Rest are probably older as you suggest.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...m-1978-170.htm

By the way, Globalsecurity.org is one of the best sites out there in terms of gaining knowledge of capabilities.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The stuff thats aimed at Seoul is their state of the art stuff. You also have to remember that its already pretty much dialed in so there will be next to no adjusted fire, and its aimed using GPS satellites so its going to land within inches of where its targeted.

There's another really nasty set of high calibre artillary pieces in regimental size thats aimed by communication triangulation, so you can bet that South Korean communications will be severely handicapped at the start of any war, especially if North Korea gets the first few minutes for free.

Yes they have the older stuff, but most of that stuff is their mobile stuff attached to Infantry and armoured formations and they don't really have to be as accurate.

The varsity is attached to the destruction of Seoul.

GPS would become blacked out on the Korean peninsula with the start of any war except on the military bands since it's controlled by the US. It's why the Europeans are trying to develop Galileo and the Chinese, Compass.

Seoul is toast more or less though since the Koreans would have had time to aim already prior to all the signals being knocked out. More scary would be if the Koreans had access to the Nuclear artillery shells that the Russians and Americans had back in the 60s/70s

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

GPS would become blacked out on the Korean peninsula with the start of any war except on the military bands since it's controlled by the US. It's why the Europeans are trying to develop Galileo and the Chinese, Compass.

Seoul is toast more or less though since the Koreans would have had time to aim already prior to all the signals being knocked out. More scary would be if the Koreans had access to the Nuclear artillery shells that the Russians and Americans had back in the 60s/70s

I agree, with the blackout, however pretty much all of those guns are dialed in by GPS right now, and the only factor effecting would really be wind and air temperature, but thats not going to blow a round off of target by more then a few feet, and when you fire a heavy high explosive shell feet don't matter much.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

If you want to read a really awesome amateur analysis of North Korea's artillery capabilities, check out this link: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes!-%282009%29

It's a lengthy read, but well worth the time.

I'm slowly reading through this right now, fascinating stuff.

[TylerSVT]

I was in Seoul last year... pretty beautiful city abliet MASSIVE.

Hopefully nothing happens, the DPRK are friggen psychotic IMO.

Question to me is, if they end up starting a war. Who sides with DPRK? China? Russia? I would really hope that everyone would be in collective agreement that they were nuts otherwise that right there is the start of WWIII.

Another thing is, the whole Nuke thing. Given WWIII starts... whats to stop a country from using a Nuke? If they are pissed enough why not? I hope it never ever gets to that but it is scary.

[FlameOn]

The NK have been brainwashed for the last more than four decades now and their people and military don't know any better at this point. They're paranoid to the extreme with the exception of some officiers who've seen what its like on the other side.

If they do start a war, China and Russia are not longer going to bail them out. Times have really changed and while both countries are still "allies" of NK on paper, neither are really crazy enough to risk economic or political stability for these crazies. I think NK is probably batty enough to use a nuke if they do get invaded though. Luckily they don't have that many nukes or any true ICBMs. Their current SRBMs/IRBMs really don't have the range to hit anything but countries in Asia atm.

Given that the NK civilians are starving, they'll probably rattle the saber every so often so they can keep extorting food from the rest of the world.

[CaptainCrunch]

I would agree, but we have to remember that there is a shifting political picture, with Kim Il's son moving into a position of power. Its interested that he was given a general rank in the army, which to me shifts even more power to the army, who would probably only agree to this accession if it gave the army greater powers over North Korea's intelligence service.

Politically the Kim's have usually used the army to hold power, but have balanced that by having the Intelligence services containing the army's power and influence.

Rumor has it that their Intelligence Service is completely infiltrated by the Chinese and there's a possibility that they've fallen out of favor.

We've seen a lot of examples of the NK army flexing their muscles lately, and thats a sign that the General's in charge are feeling their oats.