Multiculturalism Utterly Failed - German Chancellor

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Try to understand the culture of rape which exists everywhere in Canada.

POM, you seem to suggest that Canadian culture condones rape (or is, at a minimum, tolerant of it). Can you expound on that? Have I misunderstood your position?

Sorry, just curious about your reasoning on this specific point.

[Devils'Advocate]

Hrm. Germany is blaming their ills on a minority, saying they are bleeding away the wealth from the white German people. You know, the simple solution would be to put those people in camps where they could provide labour in exchange for their room and board.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Lots of people rail against multiculturalism, demanding that new immigrants integrate "better", but don't explain what "better" means. If it means speaking English or French, I'm okay with that. If it means respecting the laws of our country, obviously that's a no brainer. But what else? Do they have to follow the NHL?

Merkel said that in addition to "speaking the language" that immigrants have to learn to accept Germany's "cultural norms". What exactly are these "cultural norms" that immigrants need to follow, other than the laws of the land?

[jammies]

POM, how about you supply some links for your ridiculous claims? I can't find anything, anywhere, that confirms what you're saying about the incidence of rape. Frankly I think you are either making it all up or grossly exaggerating your sources.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Mirajj]

Originally Posted by jammies

POM, how about you supply some links for your ridiculous claims? I can't find anything, anywhere, that confirms what you're saying about the incidence of rape. Frankly I think you are either making it all up or grossly exaggerating your sources.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

He's likely one of those folks who claim that even if a women consents, she's raped, "because due to the way the society is currently set up, no woman can actually, really consent"...

[Day Tripper]

To briefly expand on that, StatsCan also reports that only 6% of rapes are reported.

What? This is theoretically impossible. If the cases aren't reported, then where do the numbers come from?

Unless anonymous survey figures aren't counted as "reported"...

[North East Goon]

I thought I read somewhere that the people who face the toughest restrictions entering our country are people native to England - is this true? That makes zero sense to me.

[tripin_billie]

I find that Germany complaining about an immigration rush to be rich, as they wouldn't have rebuilt the country as fast as they did without the use of Gastarbeiter. Seriously, I find any country that complains that immigrants are taking over, after they actively partook in using immigrants as a cheap source of labour, disingenuous.

It reminds me of those down here in the States complaining about Latino immigration. The United States, while not actively engaging in a guest worker program, like the Federal Republic of Germany, turned a blind eye to non-documented immigration for decades - when they found it financially advantageous. The neglict of the immigration laws was a defacto allowance of the practice. Now, as the economic conditions are changing, all of the non-documented aliens are being targetted as if they had killed Uncle Sam's daughter.

Countries need to learn that immigration is a reality, and with a globalized economy, it will only grow.

To blame immigrants for all of the problems of a country, which I'm not sure if Merkel is trying to do, is both wrong, and typically, hypocritical.


Sorry, I got off track halfway through this post.


Oh, one more thought. Countries like Canada, USA, Germany, and England, they should be actively recruiting skilled and educated immigrants as much as possible. The quotas for Masters or professional degree immigrants should be raised significantly.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Hrm. Germany is blaming their ills on a minority, saying they are bleeding away the wealth from the white German people. You know, the simple solution would be to put those people in camps where they could provide labour in exchange for their room and board.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Lots of people rail against multiculturalism, demanding that new immigrants integrate "better", but don't explain what "better" means. If it means speaking English or French, I'm okay with that. If it means respecting the laws of our country, obviously that's a no brainer. But what else? Do they have to follow the NHL?

Merkel said that in addition to "speaking the language" that immigrants have to learn to accept Germany's "cultural norms". What exactly are these "cultural norms" that immigrants need to follow, other than the laws of the land?

An example of a "cultural norm" that immigrants might not adhere to is organization and work ethic. For example, in Germany, there is a certain expectation that certain regiments are followed and that things are on time. Other cultures put less emphasis on things like that.. Another could be cleansiness. In some cultures, tidiness is not valued the same as it is in mainstream German society.

One Canadian example I can think of is how having personal space and general politeness is a cultural norm. Some immigrants don't come from cultures where such things are important and it can cause some strain at time.

[Pinner]

Talking about this with some people from the UK, their biggest complaint was how the immigrants (those who do work) have driven wages down dramatically. Many families sharing a single flat make it possible to work for what most Europeans would call slave wages.

Not only is there an immigrant crime wave but the drain on the social systems is unbearable.

A new study shows that on a net migration of 25,000 non-Western immigrants per year, with an equal number of offspring, Holland alone incurs a net cost of €7.2 billion [$8.8 billion] a year.

In Denmark, looking at tax-payments vs. welfare benefits only, an average immigrant from a 3rd world country (not only Muslim countries) results in a net balance of minus USD 5.200 each year. Muslims in particular add a host of other expenses incurred e.g. from increased crime rates and from having to deal with illnesses that are the results of marriages between first cousins – a common practice in the Middle East that they have brought with them.

And it doesn’t get better with time. The price tag coming with the 2nd generation is only 2 per cent smaller.

If the crime index of all people living in Denmark is 100, then a composite of people coming from ten mostly non-Muslim countries (Denmark, Germany, Poland, Sweden, Great Britain, Norway, Iceland, USA, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, China and Thailand) produce a crime index of 76.6. A composite of ten mostly Muslim countries (Turkey, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Yugoslavia, Somalia, Morocco, Iraq Pakistan, Lebanon, Iran and Afghanistan) give a crime index of 192.9.
Morocco 255, Lebanon 243, Yugoslavia 242, Somalia 227, Iraq 129, Iran 186, and Afghanistan 116.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

i expect any immigrant to Canada to obey our laws, learn to speak the local language, and reasonably integrate into Canadian life (that why they're coming here is it not?).

Not sure I totally buy this. Not everyone has to reasonably integrate.
Say a 60 year old woman from ______ comes to Canada. Does she really need to learn alot of English? She's probably here to be with her children, take care of grandkids, maybe watch the family business if there is one.
Every community in Canada is big enough that she could exist within that.

It is worth is to pay for resources (classes, teachers, facilities, supplies) to teach this lady English that she probably won't use much of anyways?


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On the issue of things at the workplace, an immigrant must comply, there is no choice. Just because your culture isn't punctual doesn't mean you can be. Just because your culture isn't clean doesn't mean your desk can be cluttered.

[Table 5]

As an immigrant myself, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to move to a country halfway across the world, and expect to live the same lifestyle you did back home. One would assume you move to a country because you admire it's way of life, and I think it's only respectful to your new home that you adapt to it's beliefs, not the other way around. Otherwise, why bother? You're just going to end up as one of those bitter people who complain about how life back home was so much better, but for some reason, never shut up and go back.

[CaptainCrunch]

I guess the question that I would ask, is are we going to see the end of what is basically open border immigration in Europe.

Theres a great deal of fear of the radicalization of their population bases going forward, and we are starting to see a backlash against Immigration.

In the 70's it was based around "Their stealin our jerbs"
In the 90's it was based around "Their taking advantage of our welfare programs"
In the 2000's its based around the Wolf in Sheeps clothing.

As much as we talk about the world shrinking in terms of people being able to move anywhere, I think the world is going to expand again as easy immigration becomes a thing of the past and as governments scramble to tighten their borders.

[transplant99]

Multiculturalism is like morality...it simply cannot be legislated. Regardless if one believes it would be best to do so or not.

People either accept differences, or they dont, and nothing any government tries to do to change that will work.

[Table 5]

Are you kidding? A good amount of college girls shuffle around campus in their pajamas these days. I was just way ahead of the game.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

On the issue of things at the workplace, an immigrant must comply, there is no choice. Just because your culture isn't punctual doesn't mean you can be. Just because your culture isn't clean doesn't mean your desk can be cluttered.

It's not just a workplace issue, but lifestyle as well. Things like littering, spitting, noise/yelling, gestures, etc... have different ettiquettes in different cultures. If something is offensive to the indigenous culture even if technically legal, the immigrant should have the innitiative to conform. This however, seems to not be the case in many situations.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

On the issue of things at the workplace, an immigrant must comply, there is no choice. Just because your culture isn't punctual doesn't mean you can be. Just because your culture isn't clean doesn't mean your desk can be cluttered.

Some of the biggest offenders of this type of behavior are Canadian-born.

[mykalberta]

Melting pot is the only way to go. Multiculturalism has never worked, it has simply existed for a time.

Its no wonder the only healthy economy in Europe is bearing the brunt of the influx with no way to stop it other than dropping out of the EU.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's not just a workplace issue, but lifestyle as well. Things like littering, spitting, noise/yelling, gestures, etc... have different ettiquettes in different cultures. If something is offensive to the indigenous culture even if technically legal, the immigrant should have the innitiative to conform. This however, seems to not be the case in many situations.

Things like spitting and littering should be against the law. Like jaywalking. In other countries you can jaywalk anywhere but here you can get a ticket.

Noise and gestures not so much, some people just have loud voices.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Melting pot is the only way to go. Multiculturalism has never worked, it has simply existed for a time.

Its no wonder the only healthy economy in Europe is bearing the brunt of the influx with no way to stop it other than dropping out of the EU.

I don't think a true melting pot is even possible. The U.S. claims to have a "melting pot" system, but the U.S. is full of distinct cultures (some immigrant and some indigenous).

For example, it seems to me just from exposure to U.S. media, arts, etc... that many Native, Latin and African Americans identify more with the qualifier. Wouldn't that represent a failure of the melting pot system? There are also regional cultures in the U.S that resist assimilation and try to maintain distinction (Texans, southerns, etc..).

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Pinner

Talking about this with some people from the UK, their biggest complaint was how the immigrants (those who do work) have driven wages down dramatically. Many families sharing a single flat make it possible to work for what most Europeans would call slave wages.

Not only is there an immigrant crime wave but the drain on the social systems is unbearable.

This is just simple economics though. I still haven't completely thought through it myself as to whether this is an issue with the North American sense of entitlement (If I know how to turn a wrench I should get 75k salary!) or an issue with globalization/immigrants/world economics.

I think the fact that there are people out there willing to do the same service for less SHOULD drive wages down, even if it is by sacrificing their own quality of life. If companies can hire an engineer for 30k that can produce as much as I can, perhaps I'm setting my rate too high. However, I also freely admit I feel entitled to at least the APEGGA rate, so I would also be unimpressed when this wage drop actually occurs on a large scale in engineering like it already has in manufacturing/services.

If you legislate against immigrants taking jobs, then companies will find ways around it, like outsourcing. So really there's no winning here as long as the market force is forcing wages down.

I agree with you regarding the drain on the social system though. Really I don't see a solution to it at this point. Immigrants feel entitled just as much in this regard and would be quite the shock if this net was removed.